5: Finding Potential Candidates Outside L&D with Jeremy Negrey

In this episode, we talk to Jeremy Negrey about finding potential in candidates outside of traditional learning and development roles. He issues a challenge to L&D hiring managers to think outside the box when looking for qualified candidates.

Jeremy Negrey has spent nearly his entire career in customer education. He’s run the gamut from technical writer to instructional designer and has created and delivered both instructor-led and eLearning content. He’s currently the owner and lead learning consultant for Crooked River Learning and the Director of Customer Education for PartsSource Inc., a healthcare technology management solution based just outside of Cleveland, Ohio USA where he resides with his wife, three children, and two dogs.

Jeremy's suggestions for instructional designers who want to expand their skill set or non-instructional designers who are interested in the field:

Cammy Bean's The Accidental Instructional Designer

Articulate's E-learning Heroes Community

The Learning Guild

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

To learn more and get more great resources:

• Connect with me on LinkedIn
• Join our global Useful L&D Community
• Work with me or see what I'm working on with Useful Stuff

Transcript

Jeremy Negrey  0:03  
 One of the things I really would encourage hiring managers to do is, is to not feel boxed in by the type of candidates that you're looking for. Look outside the box. Look for the particular skills you're looking for.

Heidi Kirby  0:13  
Hello friends, and welcome to the BLOC, the Building Learning and Organizational Culture Podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. On this episode, we have Jeremy Negrey, who is Director of Customer Education in Northeast Ohio. We talk about the untapped potential of those in other industries hoping to break into instructional design, and Jeremy issues a challenge to hiring managers to think outside the box and give those folks hoping to transition to learning and development a chance. I hope you enjoy this episode after a brief word from our sponsor, Verasana.

Verasana Narrator  0:58  
Your business needs a better way to train. The better that your team needs is a training that leads to performance. Verasana  is interactive and repeatable, so your employees can return to lessons as many times as they need to. And we optimize the training, so they and you can review their progress. The power of mobile makes it possible. Our team has decades of experience and expertise. We do it because we've been where you are. Verasana - the better way to learn.

Heidi Kirby  1:28  
Hi Jeremy. How are you?

Jeremy Negrey  1:30  
Great, Heidi. How are you today? 

Heidi Kirby  1:32  
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. So, let's jump right into it. My first question is gonna kind of set the stage for the whole episode because we're going to talk a little bit about transitioning into instructional design. So, I want you to tell me a little bit about yourself, especially how you got into instructional design.

Jeremy Negrey  1:52  
Oh wow, that's a - that's a crazy twisted story but okay. So, I have been working in learning - I guess my entire career. I started off as a middle and high school teacher. I taught seventh, ninth, and 11th grade language arts, but even back before that, I had majored in journalism in college. Without kind of dating myself too much, when I started college, newspapers were thriving and then by the time I graduated, they were all going out of business. So I had to find a plan B, very quickly and I had been an editor in our school paper and I really liked working with younger writers, so I went back to school and got my teaching license and that's how I got into teaching language arts, but I found after I'd been in it for a couple of years that I really miss doing my own writing. I loved working with the kids. I loved watching them grow and develop an appreciation for writing, but I really missed doing it myself. So I had a friend who worked for, at the time, a small software company here in Cleveland, and said, "hey, I don't know if you know how to do this, but we need some people to help us write our software manuals and some some help documents." And I said, "Well, I can't give it a try." And so I came in for an interview, and I was hired as a technical writer at Hyland Software here in Cleveland, Ohio, and I was there for almost 10 years. And I moved from eventually from the technical writing team, as we grew, to a role as an instructional designer on our training team. That was really - it really was a great move for me because it brought together a lot of the different skills and a lot of different things I like to do, you know, I still got to write a lot. I got to work with people. I got to dig in and and be creative and plan lessons, which I really loved -building e-learning. And so, I eventually led a team there of instructional designers and elearning developers and then I decided I wanted to kind of grow and spread my wings a little bit, so I went to work at another local company here, just outside of Cleveland, as sales training designer. Steris is a healthcare technology company, and they were really looking to move away from face-to-face training and build an online training library for their sales folks, so I came on board there to help them modernize. And it wasn't long before I was recruited to go do something similar for someone else, a retailer called Joann, which is headquartered, not too far away. They were looking to modernize their training department - their talent development, and this was a big change for me. I moved from, sort of, that externally facing training or that sales training technology to more of that HR side and learned some good things, met some nice people along the way but that really wasn't my bag. So eventually, you know, I left Joann and did a couple of other things and then eventually ended up here at PartsSource, which is where I am now. I'm the Director of Customer Education, and we are launching our online education program, and I'm really excited to be doing that. So, like I said - long twisted story that led me to where I am today.

Heidi Kirby  5:00  
That's great. Okay, so for a fun question since we're recording this in July. What is your favorite summertime activity?

Jeremy Negrey  5:09  
Oh, that's a really good one. So I I love being outside - like by the water, but here - like I'm definitely afraid of fish, so I won't go into a lake or a pond, so I love going to the pool. We have a really nice pool not too far from where I live, and for whatever reason the ocean doesn't bother me - I think it's because the water's clear. So obviously, you know, this is these are strange times we're living in today with the COVID outbreak. So, haven't been able to do that very much, but you know I think being out, just being able to spend time outside hanging out on the patio or grilling I enjoy that. It's always a good time in the summer.

Heidi Kirby  5:52  
Yeah, being from Northeast Ohio, we definitely - just anything outside, right? That's the right answer. (laughs)

Jeremy Negrey  5:59  
We have such a small window, right? We have to make the best of it.

Heidi Kirby  6:05  
Exactly, yeah. So, you've had an interesting career, and you've been really open to helping people transition into instructional design. In fact, you almost helped me make my transition into instructional design if I hadn't have gotten another offer first. So, tell me about a time where you hired an instructor and how you helped transition them into that role.

Jeremy Negrey  6:36  
So I think with my background and teaching, I have an appreciation for folks who are looking to make a career transition because that's exactly what I did. And so, when I first had the responsibility of leading a team and having that hiring responsibility, one of the things that I found was, it was really difficult to find a candidate who could make the - you know complete all the boxes on the checklist right? Especially, you know, working for a tech company. We were looking for so many specific things and it was just - it was just impossible to find that one - that one unicorn candidate. So I started thinking a lot about what kind of skills do I need somebody to bring to the table? And then, what what sort of things can we teach them along the way? And so I really started to look at, you know, for myself, right? Okay, what did I know before I got here, and what did I pick up? And what are some predictors that I think would work in terms of identifying somebody who would be successful, coming in? So, I really like to think about looking for candidates in instructional design as somebody with critical thinking skills, ideally, right? I think that ability to kind of make snap decisions, and make the right decision, and really go take what's in front of you and and kind of figure out what to do with it is pretty key. Definitely more so than probably the technical skills, I think, that are something that you know, you can pick up right with enough practice and effort, but critical thinking is much harder to kind of learn on the fly. Also, communication skills are really, really key. The ability to be a really good concise writer, somebody who can tell a story, I think, is a really strong skill for an instructional designer. Those are the things I really look for and that has kind of pushed me to - I really like to recruit from the ranks of, you know, somebody with a background in journalism in creative writing as a language arts teacher, things like that.

Heidi Kirby  8:36  
Great, great. How has your own transition kind of helped you to persuade others that hiring someone outside of the industry is the right move?

Jeremy Negrey  8:47  
(Laughs) That is a interesting question right because it's not always an easy thing to do. I remember the first time I was looking to hire an instructional designer, my boss at the time, he was very technical, and he had come from our services organiz ation, and his first, you know when we sat down to talk about the role and the opening and the types of candidates we were gonna be looking for, one of the first things he said is, "I'm not interested in hiring anybody who's been a K through 12 teacher." I thought "Oh. Really. Why is that?" And he said, "They just don't think the way that we need to think, and it's not - the skill sets don't match." And I said, "Well, you know, I was a K through 12 teacher. You know, and we have a couple other people here who have been K through 12 teachers and then moved into other roles and then joined our training team." And so I think that was a bit of an eye opener and then, you know, I think that at least opened the door to the conversation, and we were able to talk about... Alright, so maybe not everyone, you know, who has K through 12 experience is the right fit. But maybe some people are, right? Let's talk about what the what the skills are and how we can look for those so we're not automatically disqualifying this huge group of people that are potential fits. 

Heidi Kirby  10:06  
Sure. Yeah and with COVID and the uncertainty of what's going to happen in schools in the fall, I've seen so many people posting on Facebook groups and LinkedIn groups and Reddit, about, "I want to transition from my teaching career into instructional design, how do I do that? Where do I start?" Tell me some of the interview questions you might ask to identify those critical thinking skills, those communication skills for this group of people who's looking to transition. 

Jeremy Negrey  10:43  
Sure. So I think the first question I always ask is what got them into education in the first place because I think that's a good way for somebody to kind of get comfortable and and really kind of tell their story and demonstrate what it is they're passionate about. And then I think a good follow up for that is always, you know, okay, so what's encouragin you to think about a career change? That really gets to the idea of their motivation, right? Is it something like "I want to make more money" or, "I realized I hate this," or is it something like, "hey, I have really interesting ideas, and I just don't have the resources to implement them." I think that's that's really kind of a key story, and then I usually like to talk a little bit about - "Alright, so tell me about a lesson that you designed and walk me through your thinking, you know, from the very beginning right like, what was the - what's the impetus here or - what are the objectives you're trying to reach? Why did you select the, you know, to particular content that you did to meet those objectives? And how do you assess? And I think that's a really good exercise because you get a really good insight into somebody's thought process, as they would be, you know, designing instruction. As well as you can really get a good gauge of, you know, is this something somebody really likes to do because the best candidates are really going to start to like really geek out about like - "Ah, I figured - I found this short story, and the first thing I thought of was... " whatever objective they're trying to reach. So yeah, I love kind of diving diving down that path and really getting some insight into how people think and work. 

Heidi Kirby  12:15  
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, a lot of the responses to those instructional designers looking to transition focus on, "You need to have a portfolio." And you then see these portfolios of just like, here's a bunch of finished products, right? And then the people giving the advice who work in instructional design go, "Oh no - wait - you don't just need to have a portfolio, you need to show the process," right? And that's kind of what you're getting at is, you need to show that you're able to take something from point A to point B, whether it be ADDIE, whether it be whatever you're using, or whatever a teacher's using that maybe looks like ADDIE, right? And how does that then translate into instructional design because, I mean, the fact of the matter is, a lot of times - I know as a college instructor, it was like, "Here's the book. Bye." (laughs) You know, there's not a lot of prep that goes into - you know, you don't get a lot of pre-written lessons or... In college, they gave us an example syllabus and then the textbook. That was it. And then we had to create everything from there. And so I think one of the things that people who are trying to make the transition need to kind of realize and accept is that your experience can count, when you were teaching - as instructional design, if you start to learn a little bit about instructional design and what it is and are able to discuss how that experience was instructional design, right?

Jeremy Negrey  13:50  
Absolutely. Right, like, so if I think back to my teacher training, which was a while ago now, you know we didn't really talk about instructional design. That wasn't a term that I had heard - we talked about, you know, creating lessons, but there really wasn't a whole lot of time devoted to "alright, how do you construct a lesson," other than you know these are the state objectives. So I think it's really about getting folks, especially the folks who are coming from the education (K12) or the higher education side of things to start thinking about. Alright, what is what is my process? And I know that there's ADDIE and there's Sam and there's these prescribed models, but even - how often in the real world do you really get to sit down and really follow every single step, right? It's always a sort of like, this is my version, or this is what we do for this type of project. It's more of a guideline - so something to think about, right? What is it that I do, and how do I get from, you know, the starting point to the end point?

Heidi Kirby  14:56  
How can you take what you've done for a K through 12 audience and make it sound awesome for adult learners?

Jeremy Negrey  15:08  
I think - as hiring managers, right, we really have to think about what our long-term goals are. So, it's not about "Hey, in this lesson, somebody's talking about how to, you know, read a map, or how to multiply fractions - how will I transition that to leadership training or product training?" It's about recognizing the creativity that went into the lesson design and finding out, "Okay, I see how they kind of thought about this principle when they tried to meet this objective. Can we extend that to objectives they'll have to meet in this new role?" You know, I think looking at a very surface level is as a mistake for a hiring manager. I think you really need to think about, "Alright, given the right resources and tools and challenge to solve. Can we map that thinking process from that lesson to this lesson?"

Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever hired someone from outside instructional design, who proved to be a mistake. 

Um... (pause)

Heidi Kirby  16:16  
Do you feel comfortable answering that? (laughs)

Jeremy Negrey  16:20  
You know, I think all of us who have hired for a while, we've had - we've learned, right? From some mistakes we've made. And I think, you know, from both outside and inside instructional design I've learned some things along the way. I think one of the things that I learned really early on was finding a person who has a passion for the work, whether that they come from inside or outside, finding somebody who really loves what they do because if you find that they're not really invested in the work that they do that they don't have a passion for it, they will ultimately not be successful or as successful as you hope them to be. So, I think about one particular person that we hired. They weren't - they were not a bad candidate - I will put that out there, they were very good person, but they came from outside corporate instructional design, and a part of the job that they really loved, they were from K12 education. The part of the job that they really loved was working with the kids and sort of the altruistic, you know, feeling like they made a difference in the world. And that's not going to be your primary driver in corporate, especially depending on the organization you're with. Oh, it just, you know, we didn't fill that need for that candidate, and so I think that they felt unfulfilled and that led to - not the performance we were hoping to see. So you know, it's really making sure that you are - you're finding a candidate that they feel fulfilled by their role in your organization, and that they meet your needs as an organization as well.

Heidi Kirby  17:57  
Absolutely. So from the job candidate side now, how do you get someone to even consider you? Because I know that that was part - that was probably the biggest thing for me when I was looking in the field was, I couldn't even get somebody to even talk to me, right? Like if I could just get one person to talk to me, I could just talk about how much I love designing this stuff and how much I love teaching, and the problem was getting someone to actually not say, "Oh, teacher? Throw it (their resume) in the garbage.

Jeremy Negrey  18:30  
Right. It's hard, right? It's because hiring has become so impersonal. 

Heidi Kirby  18:37  
Yes. 

Jeremy Negrey  18:38  
You know, you have these very disconnected HR teams and talent acquisition teams that identify candidates and systems now that use AI to, you know, read resumes before they even get to a person - it's difficult. So, I found that - now, the hiring managers out there probably gonna hate me for this. But what I found is I love making connections with people, sort of outside of that process. And I have really good luck with that. So, you know, connecting - or reaching out to somebody on LinkedIn or the L&D, you know, instructional design Twitter is amazing. One of the best instructional designers I ever hired was a friend of my sister-in-law, who was a teacher and was looking to get out and wasn't really sure what they could do and was just looking for some advice. So she said, "Hey, would you mind talking to my friend just to - you've been down this road - give her some pointers?" And we ended up hitting it off, and I said, "You know, I think I've got a role opening up on my team, would you be interested in applying for it? It worked out. So I really enjoy those personal interactions and identifying people that way. If you are interested in getting into the field, Twitter is an amazing resource, there's so many learning chats out there. There's so many professionals that are willing to devote tons of time and energy to helping you make connections or understand what to do. My professional sphere just blew up when I first came across this a couple years ago. So I would highly recommend going out into the social media realm and trying to make some connections and just asking for help and advice.

Heidi Kirby  20:18  
Agreed. Yeah, I always try to pay it forward because I feel like we really are kind of a pay-it-forward field, right? Because so many of us didn't - we weren't five years old saying, "I want to be an instructional designer when I grew up," right? (laughs) So, I feel like there's a lot of that - a lot of people helped me and were willing to sit down with me and give me pointers. So now when people come to me and ask questions, I'm more than willing to help and offer advice, and I think social media really is a great place... And to not be picky about your connections on LinkedIn, right? Because like - be picky about Facebook -be picky about Instagram. Don't be picky about LinkedIn; expand your network. I can't tell you how many L&D people I connected with the summer I was trying to break into the field. I was just adding people left and right. "Hey, I'm just looking to connect to learning and development people." And just the amount of people who were like, "Oh, hey. Great to meet you. If you need anything let me know you know." And there are instructional design Facebook groups that are probably a lot like Twitter - I'm not on Twitter as much, but you know, you throw in a link to your portfolio or to your resume - people will actually go look at it, give you feedback, you know? So I think it's a really it's a great community to help with that transition.

Jeremy Negrey  21:41  
Yeah, for sure. I'm sure they're out there, but I have not encountered, sort of, a senior instructional designer - learning and development person - who has not been willing to help someone who is trying to break into the business or to learn and get started. Everybody has been very warm and very giving and is willing to introduce you to others, you know, and there's - The Learning Guild is a good one for somebody who's interested in getting into online learning, specifically, and you can just find people in, you know, typically they'll - once you make a connection with one person, they'll introduce you to 10 more. And before know, you've got a really viable network. So I think L&D really does well in that regard because we are you know, at the end of the day, we are a fairly small but close knit group of professionals.

Heidi Kirby  22:30  
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so you kind of mentioned a couple, but if you had to give me top three competencies that you look for when someone's applying for an instructional design position for the very first time, what would those top three be?

Jeremy Negrey  22:47  
Alright, so I mentioned already the critical thinking, piece. I mentioned the communication piece. I probably think the last one that I always see as important, especially on the corporate side, especially on the external side, is that ability to navigate and be professional. So, I think the ability to run a meeting, the ability to lead a conversation, the ability to step into a room with executives who you probably see passing in the hall but don't work with on a daily basis and be confident and able to talk about what you need and the value you bring to the organization. That's a really important skill. I think that it takes some time to develop and - but it's it's pretty key, especially as you get a little bit into your career.

Heidi Kirby  23:35  
Yeah, for sure and for those K through 12 teachers out there who have experience with professional development for other teachers, for principals... superintendents - that's a really great thing to add to your resume. Like, don't forget any professional development you facilitated because I feel like that was one of the strengths of my resume was the amount of "'voluntold" (laughs) professional development I did with other adults, right? It's adult learning. It's also with people who are maybe more important, if it's a principal or superintendent - president of a college, right? So that's a really good point - there's a lot of -there's a lot of leadership skills that go into instructional design right?

Jeremy Negrey  24:22  
That's a great way to put it. You are not necessarily an order taker, especially when you are in the beginnings of designing something. You need to be able to pull people into the room and kind of wrangle the cats. And kind of, something you said, you know, I think we do our K through 12 teachers a real disservice here in the United States, at least, where, you know, they are not really elevated to a position where they, I think a lot of teachers feel comfortable being that leader in the room. And I think that that is probably one of the biggest growth opportunities I see for folks who've come from K through 12 into an instructional design position in higher ed or corporate is that they've got to get over that hump of feeling less than. I know I did. It was - it was very tough. I was very intimidated. You find, I think hopefully, in most organizations, you'll find that when you come into the room that you are valued in a way that I don't think we always value our teachers.

Heidi Kirby  25:27  
Agreed. and there's something to be said for classroom management, right? To be able to talk about that in an interview, you know, "I managed a class full of 2018 year olds who didn't want to be there." Right? So the C suite? No problem. (laughs)

Jeremy Negrey  25:50  
Yeah, I agree. For sure, and you know in classroom - if you're doing face-to-face instruction, which we haven't really necessarily been talking about - classroom management is still there, right? You have - you have that person in the back of the room who will get off their phone, and you have a person who's sitting in the second row with their arms crossed, kind of huffing it everything you say. It's just - it's a little bit different in the - the tactics you'd have to take are a little bit different, but there's still an element of classroom management there. Yes, if you can handle a room of 20 18-year-olds, you've got this.

Heidi Kirby  26:24  
 Absolutely, yeah.

Jeremy Negrey  26:26  
We've talked a lot about teachers, Heidi. I think we also need to think about maybe some other roles too. One of the folks that I work with right now is a leader in our customer service organization, who has kind of worked her way up through the ranks and one of her primary roles now is to mentor and coach and train new folks in her group and although, you know, she's not in a training specific role - that is a big part of what she does. And so I think, you know, that is a skill - you don't necessarily have to have that educational background, but there is training that goes on as part of other positions. And so being able to being able to kind of coach somebody and provide that insight into how to use the tools at your disposal I think is really key. I always go back to when I first graduated from college... I was waiting to start grad school, and I got a job waiting tables, and I think a lot about the server trainer who trained me how to wait tables and, you know, I think a lot about, you know, that was very hands on. "Alright, you're gonna shadow me for a shift and then I'm going to shadow you for a  shift. And then we're going to figure out where you need to grow." So there's these skills - I think they can be developed across the board, it doesn't necessarily have to be attached to a particular degree or a particular career path.

Heidi Kirby  27:41  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of times - this is just anecdotally, but a lot of the people that I've met and come across in L&D, if they weren't in education, ended up going to some sort of facilitation role first, right? They became a trainer - they taught a certain class because they were either a subject matter expert, or I always make the joke that when I worked at NASA, you'd meet engineers who were the least socially awkward, so they put them up in front of the room to teach everybody. (laughs) And, you know, that's how some people just get into the field and then they say, "Oh, you did a really great job teaching this class. How about you teach the next one? We haven't decided what it's going to be yet, but you can figure it out right?" And so then, all of a sudden, this person who was just likable or was willing to get up in front of a group of people and talk is now in instructional design. So, you know, though it goes back to those competencies - those, those skills that you were saying, critical thinking and the ability to lead a room and the communication skills and then just the, the passion and the drive for it. Right?

Jeremy Negrey  28:52  
Absolutely. I think early in my career, you know, when I was a technical writer... we worked hand in hand with the software testing team. And there was one team leader on that software testing team who got all of the new employees because she was just - she'd been there - she had the experience, and she had just a knack for helping bring people along, and so eventually, you know, she moved into a departmental training role and then into an instructional design role. So, yeah, to your point, I think people kind of fall in, and you know, Cammy Bean's got the book The Accidental Instructional Designer and there's a lot of truth to that statement, right?

Heidi Kirby  29:29  
Yes, absolutely. It all happens by accident. So, last question for you. If you had to pick one piece of media... video... course... book... TED talk - you get the idea, to help someone who is either transitioning into instructional design or is thinking about working with people outside the industry, what would you suggest they consume?

Jeremy Negrey  30:00  
Oh my gosh. Just one? 

Heidi Kirby  30:02  
Just one. 

Jeremy Negrey  30:03  
Alright. You know I mentioned the book The Accidental Instructional Designer, which I really really love, and in fact, I typically give that to new instructional designers that I hire before the start date. So that's a really good one. I think another thing that I really encourage people to do, especially if you are interested in getting on the e-learning side is, check out some of the tools, right? There's several different rapid e-learning tool software packages out there, Particularlym I use Articulate, and I find that the Articulate E-learning Heroes Community is really, really welcoming. There's a lot of resources there, and you can download the 30-day trial and just experiment with it and play. I think that has so much value, right? You can learn - you can build portfolio pieces. Yeah, just just try to dig in and get your hands dirty and learn as much as you can. Have some fun when you're doing it. I did a career day conversation with my son's class a couple of years ago about what I do, and so you know, I'm sitting in class with fourth graders and they're like, "what do you do?" I'm like, "Well, I'm kind of a teacher, but I teach grownups and I teach on the computer." And they were very confused but I put together a demo in Storyline of how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. We put it up on the SMART Board, and I let each of them take a turn clicking through, and you know, you had to open the refrigerator and take the right item out. If you took the ketchup out, it made a noise, and it was fun stuff and they thought that was pretty cool. So I got that just from playing around. It was - it was fun.

Heidi Kirby  31:34  
Yeah, for sure. Well thank you for joining me and hopefully this gives some people tips, whether they're a hiring manager or an instructional designer looking to expand their skill set, or somebody who's not yet in our field but is interested. Come join us on the dark side. (laughs)

Jeremy Negrey  31:52  
That's right. And you know, I think, in closing, one of the things I really would encourage hiring managers to do is, is to not feel boxed in by the type of candidates that you're looking for. Look outside the box. Look for the particular skills you're looking for. You know, and when it comes to K through 12 teachers, one of the things that I've really wanted to do for a long time in my career is to build a summer internship program for for teachers come, learn how we do things on the corporate side, so you can go back to your classrooms and take some of that technology. Think about how valuable that would be right? Y

Heidi Kirby  32:25  
Yeah. 

Jeremy Negrey  32:26  
Maybe it builds a pipeline of talent down the road, and you know from our perspective, right, you can cross off a lot of those sort of lower priority things that have been hanging around your to-do list. So think about ways that you can market your programs, hiring managers, and your teams to sort of those non-traditional candidates and bring them into the fold because I think you'll find a lot of value out there.

Heidi Kirby  32:49  
Yeah, thanks Jeremy. 

Jeremy Negrey  32:51  
Thanks Heidi.

Heidi Kirby  32:52  
Thanks again for joining me on the BLOC. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai