The BLOC Podcast

43: Musings from an ID Hiring Manager with Matt Gjertsen

• Episode 43

Share episode

In this episode, I talk to Matt Gjertsen of Better Every Day Studios about his recent hiring process to hire a new part-time instructional designer for his team!

Matt's journey into learning started as an Air Force Instructor Pilot where he also spent time teaching people to compete in half marathons and triathlons. After 9 years in the Air Force, Matt took his experience with him to SpaceX where he worked for 4 years as the manager of the Training and Development team. Matt left SpaceX in 2019 to start Better Every Day Studios with a mission of enabling as many people as possible achieve their maximum potential by transforming how small companies approach learning and development.

Matt believes excellence is repeatable and can be developed in everyone. By both believing more in and committing more to their employees, companies will far exceed their performance expectations and create a dedicated workforce of the highest caliber.

For more information on how Better Every Day Studios can help, please contact them here and Matt will get back to you immediately. Also, join the conversation on LinkedIn where Matt is always looking to connect with like-minded people. According to Matt, "Let’s see what we can learn together."

Matt's suggestion for nailing the job interview? Visit and study the company's website!

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

Thanks for listening to the BLOC! To learn more and get more great resources:

Matt Gjertsen:

There's a lot of people who are taking a lot of really bad courses that were all made in 1992 and need to be remade. So keep keep at it, because there's plenty of work

Heidi Kirby:

Hello, friends, and welcome to the blog, the to be done. building learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, Matt Gjertsen is back. Yep. My friend Matt, who runs better everyday studios recently hired a part time instructional designer. And I shared out his job posting with my network to try and boost visibility. And as a thank you, he wanted to come on the show and share some of his thoughts, and some of the behind the scenes of his hiring process with all of the potential it job seekers out there. So you are not going to want to miss this one. Hey, Matt, how's it going?

Matt Gjertsen:

I'm doing great. How are you? How are you?

Heidi Kirby:

Good. Good. I'm really excited to chat with you today. You just went through a very exciting process.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yes. And I am really excited to chat because I have to say props to you. Thank you so much for the shout out on LinkedIn. I you know, when I reached out and said, Hey, I'm looking to hire somebody and man did your community through just I mean, wow, was I overwhelmed. And not only the the number of applications, but truly, truly, truly the quality of the applications. It was, it was great. So thank you so much for you're

Heidi Kirby:

so great. Of course, I have been through my own job search recently and have kind of connected with a lot of other job seekers along the way. So it's been really nice.

Matt Gjertsen:

It's one of those unique things in life that the job hunt the job hunt process that you know, once you experience it, you just have you just like Oh, yes.

Heidi Kirby:

No, true. Yes. So before we jump into how you got through the hiring process, let me just ask you to tell me a little bit about yourself so we can understand where you're coming from?

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah, absolutely. So I am the owner of learning, development consultancy called better everyday studios. I started my learning career as an instructor pilot in the Air Force, I got into corporate lnd, through SpaceX, and then some other startups and eventually turned that into left that startup to start my own company a better video studios we focus on. Right now we're primarily focusing on content creation for smaller companies. And it's been, you know, like, I'm really excited that we're one of those businesses that was, you know, pandemic founded. And I think lots of people in instructional design have probably seen just the massive explosion of our field of like, because all the things that people couldn't do that we've been telling them for years, there's a better way. And now they, they had to find that better way. So

Heidi Kirby:

yeah, that's awesome. And so as you grew, you found the need to hire some help. So tell me a little bit about how your process was different than a regular hiring process since you own your own company?

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah, absolutely. So it is very different than I think what people are going to experience at a lot of places because it's, you know, so it has historically, it's just me, right, and I'm, and I'm so I'm serving as the sorcerer, the recruiter, the first phone screen, and I'm doing everything you know. And so I was probably a little bit more targeted than you're gonna see a lot of places of I knew exactly what I wanted. You know, and it was and to be clear to this was, it's a part it was a part time role that I was looking to fill. So because we're still, you know, we're kind of in that in between stage where I'm like, do we have enough work for a full time person? And so the hope is to transition extremely quickly. But so yeah, I was very clear in the skills I was looking for what I needed. And I think that allowed the process to be a little bit faster than probably what you would see in a lot of places.

Heidi Kirby:

Nice. That's awesome. So how many people ended up applying?

Matt Gjertsen:

So I think final tally, there was 93. And that was within? Yeah, it was a lot that was with it. I mean, we had 50 Within a day and a half or two days, and then the remaining 50 kind of trickled in over the next two weeks. So it was it was a lot of a lot of resumes to review a lot of work samples to look at, which is great.

Heidi Kirby:

And one you.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah, and one and one me, one, me. But it's really that but that provided the great opportunity for this to happen. And the reason why I think this can be useful is because, you know, I got to just see so many people's work side by side. And it quickly became clear, there were certain trends of good things of maybe, okay things and things that people can do better. The things that made people stand out. So that's really I think, you know, since you were so it was so great of you to kind of share your community with me, I felt it was only right that I share that back to the community of saying thank you. And this is what I saw, you know, for people who are looking for a leg up their next time around, or the next, the next round, the next time they go forward. Hopefully, this provides some help.

Heidi Kirby:

I love it. And so how did you kind of process all of these resumes? And what were some of those trends that you noticed?

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I was pretty, you know, and apologies if you know, I love everybody, I love every person, I think everyone is amazing. But, you know, I had 50 people initially to look at, and I was like, Okay, how am I going to go through this and in a reasonable fashion and at a reasonable pace. And so basically, what I did is I started by just saying, and I've used this before, and I've seen other people do this is I basically just did a, you know, three minute skim of every submission, looking at their resume, looking at the work samples that they gave, and rarely, actually, would I go to LinkedIn. So I'd start with the resume, then go to the work samples, only if I was like, unsure or confused about their past history, then I would go to LinkedIn to try to try to fill in the gaps. And as I looked at them, I would just give everybody, either a one, a two or a three. One was based on that quick read, I'm not sure they can do the job, I'm not I'm not sold to was, I'm confident they could do this job. Three was I need to talk to this person, like something stood out, that made me just say, I need to talk to this person. And as you can expect, what that means is in that first round, you know, there were only really, honestly a couple ones. Like most people had work samples, most people had some background, most people I was like, I'm pretty sure they can do this. The vast majority of people were in the twos. And then there were about a dozen people that are probably 10 people that were three, Mark Three. And so then after that, I went back and did a deeper dive into that those 10 and narrowed it down to a list of six that I was said, I'm going to initially call these people and set up set up a phone screen with them.

Heidi Kirby:

I love it. So then what were the things that stood out to you and made you give someone a three rather than a two?

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah. Well, first, I think, you know, the distinction between a one and a two really was the work samples. It's great that a lot of people have them, which is awesome. But for everybody that's just getting into this. Just realize that that's what people are doing. And I get it. It's hard. You probably have a job already. You're super busy. Take the time to figure out how to put up a website host some content start start putting stuff together. Because especially in our field, it's it's it's like, it's like the minimum bar. It's like it's just so it's so expected.

Heidi Kirby:

Oh, really? Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah. Yeah. And then the things that made people stand out, I think what I'll break it into two different buckets. One was with the website. I love templates. Templates are amazing. I live by them, it's very clear that they're like two maybe three pretty standard template designs for eat for people who are going for instructional design roles. Which and some of some of them were better and were better utilized than others. But one thing that made me stand out is the ones who had done their own thing who would take made that the two of their website if you will. And so that's where and again, you know, if you're just getting started, use the template, get it started. Start putting stuff out there, but then highly recommend when You can do something that's more your own style or do your own thing, highly recommend it, because that definitely made people stand out. Nice. The second thing that I would say made people stand out on the content side really was content that had more types of media to it than just video and graphics, audio, especially was important videos that will have been edited that kind of thing. It just really set the stage of of being like, okay, like this person knows, has knows what's going on. They know it, they can, they can use even if it's a rough edit, like that's okay. I really, because I I remember back several years ago, the first few times I was recording my own voice and trying to put it something I think everybody has that memory of the first horse they created for a company, and the like, haunts them for the rest of

Heidi Kirby:

their lives. Right. Correct. Yeah. Uh huh.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah. And so so I get I get the apprehension, but you gotta get over it. Yeah. And it really, it really stood out the people who, you know, when you know, I specifically called out beyond is something that I was looking for experience with. And so it was, like, I was just through the moon, when I saw that somebody had not just made a VR video, but had said it to a voiceover, then it's just like, okay, like, this is great. So I think big picture wise, those are the, those are the two big things that stood out to me.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, and I think that's interesting, because I'm very much the same way I hired an instructional designer last year. And I actually just about two hours before we started talking tonight posted two instructional design positions that are just now opening on my team. And one of my big things as a hiring manager is I don't like to make people do the special work samples for my job posting. Yes. I don't love that use of time. And I don't think it's an accurate depiction of what that person would do in the role. So that means there's got to be some way for me to see your work. So a portfolio is a must have in that case.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think in our, in our kind of creative spaces, you know, it's just like, you know, modeling agencies, like you gotta have pictures beforehand. Or hey, you know, like, or, you know, any kind of creative space, where there's just like, content creation is what you do. Like, you're like, you should have have some of that. Absolutely.

Heidi Kirby:

The portfolio is your headshot.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Heidi Kirby:

So what things did you see that maybe you would tell people not to do next time around?

Matt Gjertsen:

So other than, you know, doing the things that I had just kind of talked about, there was there was one thing that I found really interesting, because especially with your with your community, as a lot of trip, people who are transitioning from from being from being a teacher, and definitely for me, and I get it like i So my background is in is in the military. Right? That's where I started. Yeah. And so when people transition out of the military, there's all kinds of discussion and talk of like, how do you take your military resume that nobody understands, it's all these acronyms, and turn it into something that people understand. And some people take that to different extremes. And I think I and because I'm used to that background, there's some of that, that I could see here, where it's like, looking at somebody who's been in a school district for a long time, and I'm trying to figure out like, I think they were a teacher, it doesn't say, teacher, I think they were a teacher. I'm not totally sure. Because I you know, again, I understand that like, this is different. My experience is different than a lot of places where the first thing is like you got to get through the automated software screen or whatever. And so my take on that, based on my experience from the military is, you know, the normal thing that you're trying to do is put in the key phrases that people are looking for. Right? And for me, because when I was looking at the resumes, I was just kind of confused at what I was looking at and that's always a bad place to put the hiring manager in. And so I often think, you know, like the job titles, the job title, like just like put in. And then like be and but then what you do what? cuz everybody does way more than they can put in four bullet points under their job title. So pick the things that matter or this hiring manager, but I don't know, to me job titles to job title unless it's I don't know there's maybe some weird weird situations. But I that's only going to get you so far,

Heidi Kirby:

for sure and I talk about this on LinkedIn a lot because I see some what I think is not great advice out there that, you know, you just want to get in the door and you just want to get past the ATS and like, yes, the ATS has like automated like, Oh, this is a quote unquote top candidate. But for everywhere I've ever worked at, the hiring manager has to go through every single application and like, especially in my current company, we're not huge, but we're big enough. But I still like the recruiter doesn't automatically get rid of applicants like my, I go through every single person that comes in, and then we discuss with the recruiter who they're going to phone screen. So I see every single resume that comes in. And as a hiring manager talking to hiring managers like you, and you're not the only person I've talked to. The consensus is pretty clear that you don't misrepresent your former job title. And you don't put something that's not true. Because if someone calls to do a background check, and they call your school and they say, Hey, did so and so work here as an instructional designer, and the school says, What? No, then you're not getting that job. Right? Like that's Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is that once you are in the word world of l&d, it doesn't matter how much you think it was similar to what you did before you have a new understanding and appreciation. And so some of the other things that I feel when I see people claiming that as their title is that they haven't done enough research on instructional design, to understand the nuance differences between what they were doing and what they're going to be asked to do.

Matt Gjertsen:

I think that's, that's definitely really important. Because even speaking for myself, you know, so I have now worked for two extremely large companies in learning and development, in both cases, making courses for their employees to take both online and facilitated, doing from beginning to end, you know, doing the audio doing the graphics, working with a subject matter expert, all that stuff. I usually don't even call myself an instructional designer. Because as I've gotten into the field, there are instructional designers, you know, who like because most of my experience has been broader, like I was I saw I was responsible, I was doing like a bunch of other stuff. And like, this is just one thing. And so most of the content that I created was relatively scrappy, and kind of, you know, which, which is its own skill and has its own thing. But I put proper, true instruction designers like yourself, like you're, you're doing a different level of rigor you're doing, you know, and so, just to highlight that point, yeah, as I've gotten deeper into the field, and the appreciation that I have, even though I mean, I've I don't know, I've probably made 100 different online courses, for for companies, I struggled to call myself an instructional designer.

Heidi Kirby:

I love that. But the other piece is, be proud of what you did that got you to where you are today. Like there's nothing wrong with being a teacher and being an educator. And, to me, it's a little bit disheartening to see that so many people want to so desperately flee that field that they don't even want to, like claim it and, you know, it's it, you know, a whole separate conversation, but it says a lot about the field of education and where we are and I fully fully sympathize with all of those teachers and what it helps them so that's why I'm saying don't lie on your resume.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yes, yes. And also to that point of feeling, you know, having a belief in yourself and what you've done, if the company that you're going to work for the hiring managers that you're going to work for, doesn't think that a teacher has something to bring to the table, that your experience isn't something that's going to add to their team. And they so disbelieve it, that they would discount you because you put teacher on your resume. You don't want to work for them anyway. You know, so 100 put, you know, yeah, so put it, put it, say what you did put it on there. And then to go back what we said before, go world is ever more going to a place where it's just about examples of what you've done. You know, like, I don't care what degree you have, I don't care what certification you have shown me the work. And so for, you know, to bring it kind of full circle, you know, for what we were talking about before. Whatever you put on your resume, if you have some awesome work samples that you can throw in front of people, it doesn't matter what's on your resume?

Heidi Kirby:

For sure, for sure. So you did something that I probably won't be doing in my hiring process, just because it's not really our HR process. But you responded to every single person who applied. Tell me about that.

Matt Gjertsen:

Good. Did I hope I hope I did. And please feel free folks call me out if I didn't, but I I kind of had to because at first I made the promise on LinkedIn that I would. And I don't know, it's just yeah, it's one of those things, I think, I mean, for one, I think the recruiting, recruiting maybe in the world, but certainly in the US is I've experienced, it's just it's a it's a rough place. It's hard for the person trying to be hired, you're spending all kinds of time. Recruiters are just always overworked hiring managers never have enough candidates. You're never you know, everybody's just everybody's struggling. And so yeah, I it wasn't I didn't I mean, I'll, you know, freely admit i It's not like I wrote a poem to every person or anything like that. You know, it was it was relatively simple. But I wanted to just acknowledge that they had that they had reached out, tell them that I had looked at stuff, a few of them wrote back asking what they can do better. I tried to respond to all of them and say, Hey, here's here's some pointers. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think you're right. Not everybody is in that position. Not every company certainly takes that position. But this was the first time I had ever looked for someone I'm hoping to look for more. And that was the one great thing is that, you know, certainly of those, those six people that I did phone screens with every single one of them I would have loved to have, I would be glad to have on the team. You know, and so, you know, there's there was also a little bit of selfishness in trying to respond to everyone to it's because so that I can go back to the well, hopefully, like, Hey, we're ready to hire more. And it was like, oh, yeah, we were you. So

Heidi Kirby:

that's nice. build those bridges and network networking the other way. I love it. That's great. Yeah,

Matt Gjertsen:

yeah, absolutely. I think. And that's, that's my hope. I think more, I think, you know, for all the Yeah, Id hiring managers out there. You know, it's such a strong community. And I think it's obvious that you know, you just be an active part of that community. And then it's easy whenever you whenever you need people, they're there to support you. So Right. Because that's, that's another thing with with the hiring process that I really think people need to realize is like, especially at larger companies, nobody likes hiring people, it's just like, like, you got a whole other job to do. Like, I don't want to spend time. And so like, just give them a reason to hire you. And they will hire you because they they want to hire, they don't want to look at another resume. They don't want to do another interview. Every hiring manager wants to hire the first person that they sit down with. And so just just give them a reason.

Heidi Kirby:

That's so true. And typically, that hiring manager is doing your job for one reason or another, like in my case, we need an instructional designer because I'm designing instruction and I need some help. Right and or someone has left and you know, their responsibilities are now falling to the hiring manager while they're gone. And so we want you yesterday.

Matt Gjertsen:

Yes, exactly, exactly.

Heidi Kirby:

So what did the final candidate do to win the position?

Matt Gjertsen:

So shout out to Heather Forbes. She's the newest member of the team and already very excited to have have her doing some great work for us. It was it was really a lot of the things that I had already mentioned. You know, she had her own kind of flair of a website. She it was her own totally Oh, look, she was very clearly a serious person, like she had already kind of made the move she was trying to she was picking up side projects as an instructional designer. And so she had a great website for that she had great and amazing work samples. And one thing that really stood out for her as well that a few people were like this, and I know, depending on where people are in their career, this may or may not be something that is practical. But she had a background outside of learning or l&d and stuff as well. You know, and I always think that, from my perspective, I think it's great for people in the learning and development, if they've had that experience of like, doing something out in the business being the what we would now consider our customer, you know, if they did have that customer of LM D, because I think it really helps. It helps you understand the helps you understand the customer better helps you understand the needs better helps you serve the customer better when you've been on that on that other side.

Heidi Kirby:

Totally. That's awesome. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to share any final thoughts about the hiring and interview process?

Matt Gjertsen:

No, I think I think that about that about covers it, it was, it was a great, it was a great experience, great people, there's so many good people out there doing good work. And you can really tell like, again, like with the templates, and stuff like that, even though I think we want people eventually to move, move beyond some of that stuff, you got to start somewhere. And it's very clear that within this community, there's a lot of really good information going out there about these are the steps you should take, if you want to make this transition. And so encourage everybody to like keep keep listening to, to people like yourself, you know, because because it's working, it really is.

Heidi Kirby:

Awesome. So then my last question for you, is if you had to recommend one resource of your choice to help new ideas nail the interview, what would it be? And why?

Matt Gjertsen:

I think that's a tough one. For me, it kind of goes back to I'll give, I'll give an answer. That's more of maybe maybe a catch all for just how to nail an interview, in my opinion. Okay. And and I think that resource is really in it depends on who you're talking to. But the company's website, of wherever your your line to learn about them, like I had the opportunity years ago to interview for Netflix, I did not get the job. But Netflix is a great example of right from the front, you could tell part of their process and interviewing was testing. Do you have you read the Netflix culture deck? Do you have you know what it is? When I say these phrases? Do you know what it is? And so go into their website, scene finding they're like about me or about us kind of thing, figuring out a little bit about their culture, seeing a little about what they do. And really being able to paint the picture of this is how I'm going to help you in a specific way, not a general way. You know, this is the part of your culture that resonated with me, this is why I think I will fit well there this, I'm interested in your customer base, because my uncle had a business doing this thing. And I'm really into it, you know, like, showing that bit of connection, I think is is really shows that you're that you're invested in, I suppose.

Heidi Kirby:

I love that answer. I was not even thinking of that. But that's such a, it seems like a no brainer. But I feel like it's it's not right.

Matt Gjertsen:

It's the number I mean, I think back to when I was I was interviewing for roles. I'm certain that there were times where maybe two minutes before the interview, I was just like I should I should go look this up and I like quickly scoured the website or whatever. It's just like, Yeah, this is silly, or I'm sure we've all done had that, you know, Intro to somebody to for a potential like mentorship opportunity or whatever, and we get there. And they're like, so what you want to talk about and you realize, like you didn't even look up their LinkedIn profile. You have no idea who you're talking to you like, totally failed this. What did I do? So yeah, I think that's always a good a good place to start.

Heidi Kirby:

That's awesome. Well, we so appreciate you taking the time to come on here and talk to us all about your awesome hiring process. So thank you.

Matt Gjertsen:

No, absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks again. For putting the shout out on LinkedIn and thank you, Truly, truly, thank you for everybody who, who submitted their roles. You're all doing great, amazing work, keep doing your great, amazing work. We need a lot of instructional designers out in the world. Yeah. There's a lot of people who are taking a lot of really bad courses that were all made in 1992 and he to be remade, so keep keep at it because there's plenty of work to be done.

Heidi Kirby:

Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.