The BLOC Podcast

35: Agile Unemployment with Sabina Sulat

• Episode 35

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In this episode, I talk to Sabina Sulat about her amazing book Agile Unemployment (https://www.amazon.com/Agile-Unemployment-Guide-Thriving-While/dp/1737718332) and what it is like to be unemployed, how to take care of yourself, and how to focus your search for the next step in your career journey. 

Sabina is a graduate of St. John’s College in Annapolis, Maryland. While in school, she studied philosophy, mathematics, and physics. She performed her graduate work in Industrial/Organizational Psychology through Walden University, focusing on the impact of internet use on social interactions. Sabina has spent most of her career as an HR professional and Learning & Development executive for multiple organizations at a national and global level including Magellan Health, BlueCross BlueShield, the federal government, The George Washington University, and most recently, AstraZeneca. Sabina specializes in leadership development, change management, organizational development, and DEI. Along her career journey Sabina has become certified and versed in multiple assessments including Total SDI, Bridge’s Model for Change Management, MBTI, DiSC, and others. She has also consulted with numerous organizations to develop and design programs that merge organizational goals and strategy with meeting employees’ development needs. 

Sabina has recently launched her first book, Agile Unemployment, written to help people build resilience and confidence while out of work. In spring of 2022, she will launch her second book, tentatively titled, The Working World, geared at explaining workplace dynamics and expectations to high school and college students. 

In addition to her work, Sabina spends a significant amount of her time volunteering for such organizations as ONE.org, the African Well Fund, and her alma mater, St John’s College. In her personal time Sabina enjoys travel, entertaining, and live music. She is hopeful we will be able to enjoy all those hobbies soon.

To learn more about Sabina's book and to book a speaking engagement see: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ina9q5nyegkbeKP3oh0LxNHUAns6KYIi/view?usp=sharing



Sabina's suggestion for those who are unemployed or considering resigning:
Caroline Adams Miller, MAPP and Dr. Michael B. Frisch's Creating Your Best Life: The Ultimate Life List Guide

(https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Your-Best-Life-Ultimate/dp/1402779984)

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com



Thanks for listening to the BLOC! To learn more and get more great resources:

Sabina Sulat:

No one can take care of you the way you can. And that's another thing to take ownership of because you will be surprised the impact of just those tiny little gestures for yourself.

Heidi Kirby:

Hello, friends, and welcome to the block the building learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, I talked to Sabina Sula, the author of agile unemployment, a book about how to navigate through unemployment, of course, we talk about being unemployed, and how to keep your head above water while you're going through that period of transition. But we also talk about my recent resignation from my current job, how to maintain self care during unemployment, and so many other great things. So if you have recently become unemployed, or you know, someone who has, this is the perfect episode for you. Hi, Sabrina, how are you? Hi, Heidi.

Sabina Sulat:

I'm great. How are you?

Heidi Kirby:

I'm good. Today is Friday. And it although it's rainy here where I am right now, that means that we're probably going to have a nice recording session because my dogs won't be distracted. So

Sabina Sulat:

Excellent. Excellent. I'm in the DC area. And we're due to hit 80 degrees today. Can't Believe It's October?

Heidi Kirby:

I know mid October at that. Not the beginning. Mid? Yeah, yeah, it was 80 degrees here in Cleveland yesterday, and I'm going, it's too hot to mow the lawn. But there's leaves everywhere. What do I do with this?

Sabina Sulat:

You just wait, that's the answer to that,

Heidi Kirby:

right, do something right on, wait 24 hours, and it'll be 50 degrees. So. So let's hop right in. You have written a great book called Agile unemployment. But I want to hear a little bit about you about your background, and then maybe kind of how you decided to go the route of writing a book.

Sabina Sulat:

Okay. So my background, how I used to earn my living, I have over a decade and a half experience in human resources. I've done everything HR from, well, everything but compensation and benefits. And I've been lucky enough to have worked for some amazing companies across the nation across the globe. And I've gotten to do something very different and select for each one of them. But I think I found my true calling in the world of OD organizational development and learning, I just love that space. You get to meet everyone in the company, you get to know them as a person, you get to watch them grow and develop. And I love that space. I had what I thought was my dream job, you know, you you kind of think like this is where I want to be. And I'd gotten that in a few years ago. And I was director of learning and development for a fantastic organization. I had this life plan worked out where I'll do this job for a few years, I will continue my education, I will become a thought leader. And I will be able to like tell the world how they should work, right. And then life laughs at you when you make those plans. I lost that job. And it was soul crushing. I questioned everything about myself, my abilities, my plan. It, it was probably the darkest period of my life because I was out of work for a year, for the first time ever in my life since I was probably 13. And I did not know how to be unemployed. Every time something happened where I would learn. Usually it was costly in either money or time. I would say to myself, you know, why does anyone tell you this I'm going to write a book. And it became just this inside joke with me and my friends. And when I found a job a year later, the idea of writing a book and helping others went out the wayside. I was busy learning your job. Yeah. And I had this great job that I loved, but I wasn't enjoying it. And I couldn't figure out why. Because it was again, it was even better than the job I had left, which is what you want. You always want to trade up. Yes. And it just started to hit me like I'm not I don't have the joy for l&d that I used to have. And I think things happen for you, not to you. And it was this weird series of events where someone reached out to me on LinkedIn COVID hit, I was home because we were sent home during COVID and I found myself at home in the afternoon and I got a ding on my email that the This guy's podcast was on. I thought I'll treat myself to a podcast. And he had, his name was Andy starch. He was talking about his book on your career on your life. And his book coach was on his podcast. And I'm like, I'm gonna write that book. And I started writing that night. And I realized a lot of people would be out of work because of COVID. I had information that would be helpful, from my own experience, and from being an HR and l&d. And that's it. That's where how I wrote the book. And I love

Heidi Kirby:

it. Yes, we are here. And we're here because you also appeared on Sarah Kunis stras, overnight trainer podcast, and I spoke to her, she's like, You have got to talk to Sabina, you've got to bring her on your podcast. So for all the listeners who are listening to this, who have not listened to that one, I want to try and cover like a different set of topics so that both are equally

Sabina Sulat:

as valuable. Excellent, excellent. And Sarah is phenomenal.

Heidi Kirby:

I love Sarah is great. I love Sarah, too. She's such a great human being and great helper in the field. So the first thing I want to kind of touch on and ask you about is I think relevant to a lot of people. Because there there are kind of two big things happening right now. Right, we've got still a lot of people getting laid off due to COVID and the pandemic. But we've also got a lot of people leaving their jobs right now. Yeah, this great resignation. I'm actually part of that. Today, the day of this recording is my last day in my current role. And I don't have something else lined up, which I'm sure is true for a lot of other people as well, who've decided to leave their roles. How can we kind of this question is twofold. How can we kind of de stigmatize gaps in employment? And how can we explain those and future interviews?

Sabina Sulat:

Okay, so before we do any of that, let's celebrate you yay, you for realizing that there's something else out there for me, and I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I'm going to pursue it. I admire that tremendously. So gay you, you, I already you're my heroine. But you bring an interesting question. And I don't even know if it's relevant anymore. And I think this is good news. Whenever there's any kind of I think my kind of brand is whenever there's any kind of tragedy, yes, it's, it's very bad thing. You need to kind of honor that, more than that, whatever else. But when I look back at my life, any bad events, such as when I was out of work, and it was horrible, you have to look for some good to come out of it. And this is one of the things I work with people to do, is it you redefine your career, you redefine yourself, you find more value in day to day life. And we're in this place in the world where you have the great resignation going on. And we I, we I think we can all agree that a huge part of that is the reaction to Oh, my gosh, this global pandemic has happened. And I realized, I love my kids. I like having meals with my family every night. Yeah, I don't want to work 60 hours a week, or if I'm going to work that hard. Maybe I want to work for myself, or an organization that speaks more to me. I don't think organizations are even blinking at those gaps anymore. And I think this is great news, especially for women who tend to have more of these gaps on our resumes, because we're the caregivers going to just put that out there. I think that you can I think it's now okay to say, Yeah, I was part of the great resignation. And I wanted to make sure that I was working in a career that really suited me that fulfilled me. And then your next response to a recruiter or a hiring manager is, and that's what's brought me here. Yes, that's why, you know, it's remember those old movie trailers that used to be like, if you see one film this season, see, whatever your responses, you know, I could choose to work anywhere. I'm pursuing a job here because and then have your wise and have your gutters. Luckily, and I hope this is the first step to normalizing unemployment, where now people aren't usually when you were out of work, and I was out of work very recently. It was only a few years ago. A lot of people the first questions like so what did you do? Like, why why? Why did they no longer want you? Yes. And part of what's how I think now as people are realizing, Oh, hey, maybe it's not, maybe it was just a business decision as it was with me. Sure. And I don't think you have to really spend a lot of time explaining it. You explained really what you did with that time off. I developed myself, I got a certification. I did a lot of soul searching, I spend time with my family I traveled. It's almost like, if you took that gap year in college, and you explain to, you know, an internship or a company, like what did you do with your gap year? Hopefully, you didn't spend in your parents basement playing video games, right. But maybe you backpacked through Europe, you you continue to develop as a human being. And I think that now it's, it's more acceptable. It's not the stigma it used to be. I also think we need to give a little kudos to the younger generations in the workforce, the millennial and Gen Zers. Because they've made job hopping, okay. Yeah, I think you're welcome. So one thing I want to say the great resignation is happening. But that trend of people leaving jobs really goes back all the way, even before 2008. Yeah. And it's because of those two generations. They, they had no problem leaping without the net. And I think we're all saying like, Hey, I think they're onto something.

Heidi Kirby:

Oh, for sure. You know, one of the best pieces of advice I ever got very early in my career was from a Gen XOR. And you know, it, it's funny, because this particular Gen X er had been in the same job for a very, very long time. But was okay with that, right? It was like, Yeah, this is my this is work, you know, was able to have that separation of work and life in a way that I'm just not because I have to be passionate about what I do. And he saw me getting stressed, he saw me getting upset, he saw me getting kind of, you know, discouraged at work. And he he was like, Heidi, let me tell you something. I hate to be morbid, but if you died tomorrow, the job would be posted before your obituary is. Yeah. And that just like, you know, you, you always kind of know that in the back of your mind that it's business, everything's business, but like putting it that way, just like put it in a whole new perspective for me. And I was like, you know, and he was like, never kill yourself over a job. It's not worth it.

Sabina Sulat:

So I think you bring up a good point that everyone needs to keep in mind, no one's indispensable. You know, even if you look at people who personify their organizations like Steve Jobs, you know, and he was phenomenal. And he did amazing things for Apple, but they have gone on. Yeah, and no one should be indispensable to their work. To your family. Absolutely. To your friends. Absolutely. But when you realize that you realize I do need this balance, I do need to be this, you know, whole human being. How do I go about that?

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that a period of unemployment is really good for creating kind of, you know, not only spending time with your family, and all those wonderful self care, things that we should absolutely do. But for creating kind of your personal brand. What do I look like as a professional moving forward? Because if I hadn't been laid off during COVID, I wouldn't have this podcast for one, I would have never started it. So I wouldn't have, you know, gotten involved in mentoring on LinkedIn, I wouldn't have grown the network that I've grown on LinkedIn. And subsequently, I wouldn't have been able to leave my current job relying on that network to help me find the perfect next step.

Sabina Sulat:

See, and you're doing, from my opinion, everything right. And this is one of the things that I coach people to do is this unemployment period is usually looked upon as this horrible thing that we have to get out of as soon as possible. I understand their realities because I have them too. We have bills to pay, we have obligations, people to care for. However, let's not squander the unemployment period. First of all, you have to be very strategic. When you start it, you need to take a lay of the land, you know, what's my money look like? What are my you know, is there insurance to use up? Make sure I'm healthy, make sure the family is healthy. But then what do I do with this time? Instead of immediately going onto LinkedIn and hitting some MIT submit submit. I love that you put it What's your brand? So what do you want to do? What do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, I have people do things like write their vision and mission statements. And it's amazing what comes out in these. And nine times out of 10, people come back to me, and they're like, I had no idea I wanted to do this. I had no idea this was in me. And it's like, okay, well, now that we know the direction you want to be headed in, let's look for let's really be strategic in what you apply for. And maybe you are lucky, and you have savings and you have a little bit of time to play with. Do you want to travel? If you can? Do you want to go back to school? Do you want to clean out your closets? You know, use this period, because you're never going to have this kind of time again. Yeah. And it is a time to be mindful and thoughtful. I think you're doing everything just right.

Heidi Kirby:

Thank you. Yeah. And, you know, one of the big things was, when I kind of first decided I was going to leave my job, my current job, I gave a very long notice period. And so my original thing was smallest gap possible between one and the next. And my husband was like, how do you have done that for every job you've had, in the last 510 years? That you've had no breaks? You've had? No, you know, he's like, when's the last time you took more than a week off from anything? Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, I, I don't have a good answer to that, you know, like, even around the holidays, you know, I would only have a week off. Because, you know, I am one of those chronic job hoppers. And so I would never have accrued that much vacation time to take a ton of time off. And so he's like, take some time, like, you've earned it, like, take some time, you know, and I think having that support system has been, I've been so surprised by how many people that are my acquaintances on LinkedIn, who I have, you know, had the opportunity to try and help them through navigating their unemployment or their resignation, or their career transition, who just reach out and say, hey, just checking in. How are you doing? Yeah. It's wonderful.

Sabina Sulat:

So let's talk about that for a second. That's another thing I think that's changed. But it might not have changed for everyone. And again, because that stigma is gone. It's okay for me to check in with you. It's okay for us to talk about it. I just got in the mail yesterday, a friend slash client sent me this lovely welcome fall card. And the reading the book and one of the things I talk about is for me, I found that friends became a rarity after the six month mark. People were afraid to check in they didn't know what to show a surely afraid I was going to ask for money. You know that that kind of awkwardness. And she's going through that right now. I really believe that times of trouble tragedy, really sort out who your true friends are. Everyone is there at the beginning. Everyone brings you casseroles or takes you to the movies or treats you to lunch. But when things go on for a while, that's where you find your diehard friends. Yeah, I lost a lot of friends when I was out of work. Sure. And I don't think that was as big a loss now in retrospect, as I felt at the time, because you feel so lonely when you're involved in it. And I think you're doing a really great thing that I recommend to people is network, make new friends. If you find something you're interested in LinkedIn is a wonderful thing you can reach out. And podcasting who's done podcasting, and who's you know who's in a field I'm interested in, but to there's a difference between busy busy, and then that effective busy, and it just sounds like you're doing the right thing by being effective busy. And it's not just you can't apply for jobs eight hours a day, nor should nor should, you should be selective. You're an important, valuable person. You need to be at a place that recognizes that and taking this time for yourself is you recognizing that you know, I'm worth it, and build that network, build those skills that you need, and the time really will go by quickly. But when you're ready to go back to work, you are going to be recovered. You are going to have built resilience and you will be ready to give that new commitment all of your effort. And that's another thing that is really important for people to know, when you lose a job, you've gone through trauma. And you're so busy in survival mode that you don't, you might not realize the depression or the anxiety when you go back to work, and you think your life should be normal, and it's not, that's when it hits you like, oh, something's not quite right. And we have to fix that so that we can be these resilient human beings were meant to be.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, absolutely. I just posted about that on LinkedIn recently, because I feel so strongly about it after working with so many educators who are looking to get out of the classroom, because they are tired, they are burnt out, they are not supported by their administration. And, you know, something happens to you, like you said, the trauma of being burnt out the trauma of not feeling supported the trauma of you know, being in a toxic work environment, those affect your mental health in such a great way. And I've told I scream it from the mountaintops, a new job isn't going to fix what is broken inside you.

Sabina Sulat:

It's like a relationship, if you're in a bad relationship, and you break up, and then you date the same person, but they just have a different name. And, you know, but they think traits and everything else, you're gonna make those same mistakes. And, again, if you have this time period to work on yourself and be mindful, you have less of a chance of repeating those errors. And I think that's almost what happened to me, I, I was offered a great job and a great company. And then when you go through that honeymoon stage of a new job, you don't quite see it, like mine was great. I got to travel. While Europe was still open, I got to travel, they sent us business class, which was lovely. But it was like there was an emptiness for me. And a friend of mine, we were talking a couple of days ago, and she's like, you know, you were so much happier now. I'm like, Yeah, I don't have the security. There's a bit of pressure, but I just enjoy what I do so much more now. I feel so much more fulfilled. And I want everyone to feel that.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, absolutely. I think it's, I think that's underestimated, especially because, you know, traditionally, you're, you know, kind of talking about that, like 40 hours a week in the office, like that old style of work, right? You weren't expected to feel fulfilled by your job, it's still kind of, you know, foreign, when I've talked to the older generations of my family about, like, needing to be passionate about the work that I do. And they kind of look at you like, why it's just your job. But your job, you spend 40 hours a week there, you spend more time at your work than you do with your spouse and your your young kids because they have really bad times. And you know, it's it's important.

Sabina Sulat:

We spend more time at work than anywhere else. Yes. And we deserve to be fulfilled there. Now. I have complete respect for somebody who realizes I need an income, I need benefits. Yes. And I'm putting my love and my resources into family or volunteering. Kudos to you. I think that's phenomenal. What I suggest to people is, let's just make do that gut check of, okay, is this really working for me and it doesn't stop when you find the volunteer opportunity or you decide to spend more time with family or relationship or you find that dream job that check in should happen pretty regularly, at least quarterly if not more, where you go down everything. And I was talking about this with someone else where we do these annual physicals, we should do these annual physicals where we get our blood checked and we get the heart checked and everything we go to the dentist, we get the eyes checked. But we don't do that for our psyche and our soul. And we need to do that. I think we'll be happier people as a result.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, yes, that's very true. I'm trying to remember, there's a thing that I now do every end of the year, and I'll have to post it in the show notes. It's a workbook that's kind of set up exactly for that. It has the word compass in the title, but the title escapes me now. So I'll just link it in the show notes. But it's really just you do a couple things the first time you fill it out, you just kind of fill it out on your own and just answer all these different questions about what was good about this year. What was you know what? Looking back and then looking forward like it very intentionally starts with looking back on over the past year. And then as you move forward, and then As you start to do it year over year, it says, go look back at that document that you filled out last year, it encourages you to fill it out by yourself or with a partner. You know, it's just a really great tool for kind of that. And especially, because I believe the first year that I that I filled it out was 2019. So then in 2020, when I was laid off, and I, you know, was looking back at the previous year, I was like, I had no idea what was coming. And that's okay. Right?

Sabina Sulat:

Okay, there's so much to unpack in that I love. I encourage anybody I work with to one of the first things you should do is write a list of accomplishments. In your prior job, one, it's good to put on a new resume. But it also helps you see, oh, I was really good at what I did. It might not have been me, maybe it was just a business decision, after all. And it's so affirming. And I'm all about the goals. And I'm all about, you know, where do you want to be. And that should not be this is where organizations get it wrong. I've always done performance management for companies. You write your goals at the beginning of the performance management cycle. And then those goals stay with you till your end of your performance review. And that's wrong. Goals are meant to be flexible. They change as your environment changes. I love your idea of constantly looking back and looking forward. This, you need to take kind of ownership of your life. And when you do that, you realize you're not this pawn, where you're just dependent upon an organization employing you. You have this strength and empowerment to really create the life you want. It goes beyond work. It goes into all aspects of life, but it is an active process. So I love that we will be talking at the end of the year. Definitely.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes. And I did I just took a second to look it up. It's called year compass. But anyway, I will. I will. And it's absolutely free. You can download a digital version, a print version. They also have created a pandemic supplement. Ooh. So yeah, it's it's just it's really intentional. I think it's really nice. But in the book, one of the things that I like is that you talk about, I believe you talk about it's called extreme self care. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about that.

Sabina Sulat:

Yeah, I extreme self care saved me. I'm always the I think there's reason I went into HR and learning. I'm always the nurturer. One of the reasons I had a difficult time being out of work was I was always the one people came to for help. And it would be do you need? Do you need money? I'm not gonna lend it to you. I'm gonna give it to you. Do you need a place to stay? My home is open. And suddenly, I was the one who needed care. And my friends were phenomenal. I didn't even have to ask. Another friend pointed out to me that the one person not taking care of me was me. I developed horrible habits while out of work. The lack of structure was not good for me. I like structure, it helps me a lot. Yeah. And so that extreme self care. We don't do it. I just talked to a client. I asked her, What are you doing to take care of yourself while you're out of work? And she said, Well, I'm volunteering, like, no kudos, love that you're volunteering. But that's not. And yes, you get fulfillment out of it. It makes you feel great. But it's that taking time for yourself and self care. Extreme self care, because you are in extreme situation when you're out of work. Should be things you just get joy out of. For me, one of the big things was reading. You read so much for work, you never set time aside, to to just read for pleasure. And I started doing that. I discovered meditation. I am not a typical touchy feely kind of person. I thought this is so weird. I would laugh hysterically the first few times I tried to meditate. Now I find it's just the best way to kick off the day or end the day for me. It's very grounding. I'm like, I can't believe I'm converted to this but fine, I'll take it. Yes. Take those pockets and opportunities for extreme self care. Make sure it's it speaks to you and the first thing you try might not be it You might think, Oh, I'll take long baths and realize no, I really am a shower person. And that's okay. Part of this is learning and exploring. The one big note I'm going to say for everyone is don't do and I did, I made the big mistake. When I went back to work, all that self care went out the window. Sure, sure. And I rationalized it, oh, I can't, I can't meditate because I haven't a 45 minute commute now. And then when I get home, I'm too tired houses, I'm too tired to meditate. Right? You, you have to pick one or two practices to carry over, and change and supplement and add to it, but no one can take care of you the way you can. And that's another thing to take ownership of, because you will be surprised the impact of just those tiny little gestures for yourself. And it doesn't have to be a big deal. It could be getting your favorite kind of coffee. It could be painting, painting a room a color you like that is self care. Figure it out, talk it out with somebody vision board, Bullet Journal, anything that you think would get ideas flowing. Pinterest is a fabulous place to look up things. So if you put in extreme self care, you'll be amazed at the things that come up. And I'm glad that you mentioned that because that, again, we're so busy finding new direction looking for a new job. We think because we're not working that we're okay. And we really it does help to recover.

Heidi Kirby:

So Oh, yeah, well, and we also feel, well, at least, you know, I have in the past felt like, when I'm unemployed, I should be, like you said, looking for a job constantly. And if I'm doing anything outside of that, if I'm doing anything, it's almost like the you know, you have to flog yourself, right like that flog yourself find this job like everyone else is working in, you're at home on your butt doing nothing. And it's like, but no, not not really, like I am looking for a job. But I, you know, I'm not going to be able to be successful in a new job if I don't take care of myself.

Sabina Sulat:

So I'll share a cute story. When I was out of work, a friend just gave me money, she gave me a check. And she said here I've been out of work. I know what it's like, I don't want you to have to worry about a few things. So here. And it was lovely. It was incredibly generous, I'll be honest, I didn't think we were that close. She was a friend or colleague. And I'm like, wow, you're an amazing person. And I was out with her. And we decided to get coffee. And of course, I ordered something very fancy. And I felt like I had to justify it to her, I suddenly felt so guilty of like, Oh, I haven't had one of these in a really long time. And she just put her hand up she has, I don't care. She was enjoy the coffee. I gave you the money so that you could do things, knock it off. And I was like, you get me so far entitled, during this period to feel good about yourself. If you don't, if you stay mired in the anxiety, the depression, the feeling bad about yourself, when you're ready to interview and go back to work. Any hiring manager and your recruiter is going to they're going to see that in you. Yes. And it will be a turn off. And you want to come back as this whole healthy human being that they're dying to have in their organization. And that's one of the reasons why we need to take care of ourselves during this time.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, absolutely. I've told people that before where I'm like, you may not realize this. But you know, if you're on a zoom call, even if you're on the phone, a hiring manager or recruiter can pick up on, especially if they're a good one. If they're good at their job. They can pick up on those emotions, they can pick up on your your insecurity, the fact that you're burnt out, and I'm sorry, but as a hiring manager, I don't want to hire somebody whose confidence is that low, who you know, is already burnt out, you know, burnt out from day one. What can I do with that? How can I make that productive? You know,

Sabina Sulat:

and let's also talk about I mean, you're 100% right in that but let's also talk about the example you might be setting if you have kids. Mm hmm. You want to set that example to them that they are important and they deserve this. And if nothing else that you and I have talked about today, it proves to anyone that they should be doing it think about how you're being a role model to your children, or really your partner or your spouse because I would hope if the shoe were on the other foot you would be the first person telling them You know, you need to take care of yourself, you deserve this. I love the exchange, you told me, you and your husband had. That is perfect. He's looking out for you, as you would do for him, congratulations. Very impressive.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, yes, we both come a very long way in our relationship through hard work. And we, you know, it's it's about taking turns supporting each other, right, and taking turns supporting each other through, you know, whatever comes up. And you know, what I, you know, I don't necessarily believe in karma in its purest form. But I do believe that what you put out there will come back to you and I, I'm, I'm seeing that tenfold where I've supported a friend or helped someone navigate a career transition. And now that's coming back to me. And I think it's just really, really wonderful. And so, you know, I think that if you if this episode does not resonate with you because of unemployment, or because you're thinking about resigning from your job, think about it from the sense of who can I support? Who is in this position right now.

Sabina Sulat:

And I have a section about that in the book of how you can support someone who's out of work. And I do get a lot of comments on that. So thank you for bringing it up.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, absolutely. The book is wonderful the book is I didn't want to get too much into it, because I want people to go buy it and read it for themselves. One of the things that really stuck out to me was just like the first part where you talk about your situation. And there were, I don't know if it was just because my situation was similar. Or if you wrote it in such a way that you find the relatable pieces for you as the reader. But it was like, pow in the face. And I was like, Alright, I'm ready to read the rest of this now. Right. And I think it's so great. And wonderful. And I think that you've really covered, you've covered so many things with it. You know, we just scratched the surface, talking about the self care piece, but you talk about finances and interviewing, and how to support other people. And you know, just all of these different things networking. Right. And I just, I think that if you're thinking about resigning, if you have been laid off or what have you, you you have to check it out. You just you absolutely have to check it out. Because it's great. It's great stuff.

Sabina Sulat:

Thank you. Well, I'm so glad that I feel amazing about myself now.

Heidi Kirby:

You should, you should. So I have one last question for you. So this is a question I asked all my guests. And I know that like the number one answer for me, is your book. But I'm just going to ask it anyway, just in case there's like a secondary resource. But if there was one, book, blog, video community, any piece of media, anything that you would recommend for someone beginning to navigate unemployment other than the book, which should be number one, what would it be?

Sabina Sulat:

Well, that is an excellent question. Because I think about building courses for people and things like that, that I would love to do. I will do. I will say one thing that really helped me. There's I'll reference another book, because I'm a reader. I'm a learner. I'm a learning person, and I'm going to get the title wrong, I always get the title wrong. And it's, I believe it's called Creating Your Best Life. And it's a book about will make sure Heidi gets the right information to you. I was one of those books that sat on my bookshelf for years collecting dust. When I lost my job. I pulled it down and I eagerly started it only to put it down and not touch it for months. And I went through this epiphany of I need to do something different. And I pulled that book. And it's this amazing book about it pulls so many things in like the psychology of positivity, which is a real thing. It talks about not only it talks about not just how to write goals, but how to write goals so that you will reach them. And it's based in science, but it's also based in art. And there's something in there that will speak to anyone and they just came out with a second edition. So now the authors and I are pen pals on LinkedIn. I'm very excited about Oh, nice, and I found this book to be incredibly helpful. And then I'll add one, I'm going to make it two things. The other thing is your friends in your life work, you need support. Not one person can give you support all the time. So you really do need to widen your circle. So between the two books and your circle of friends, I think you should be able to come through this even better than before.

Heidi Kirby:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Sabina. It's been an absolute pleasure having you.

Sabina Sulat:

Thank you. I've enjoyed this. So and good luck to you guys do explore during you're not working time. I'm excited, which I know you work all the time anyway. But

Heidi Kirby:

yes. Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.