BLOC Podcast

33: Learning Culture and Mindfulness at Work with Roberta Dombrowski

September 21, 2021 Episode 33
BLOC Podcast
33: Learning Culture and Mindfulness at Work with Roberta Dombrowski
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I talk to Roberta Dombrowski, VP of User Research, about how to encourage a culture of learning in your organization and what mindfulness in the workplace looks like.

Roberta Dombrowski, MS is the VP, UXR at User Interviews, a research recruitment platform aimed at helping teams discover and embrace user insights. Roberta previously led product research at Year Up, edX, and Pluralsight. In her free time, Roberta is an adjunct professor through Boise State University's Organizational Performance and Workplace Learning (OPWL) program and mindfulness teacher.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertadombrowski

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/robertalearns

Roberta's suggestion for those who want to make a bigger impact on the learning culture at their organization:
Teresa Torres' Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products that Create Customer Value and Business

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

Thanks for listening to the BLOC!

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/

Or check out what I'm working on over at https://www.getusefulstuff.com/

Roberta Dombrowski:

No matter what organization you're in, no matter whether it's like a culture of learning or what you're trying to create, you have to create trust between employees first.

Heidi Kirby:

Hello, friends, and welcome to the blog, the building, learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, I talked to Roberta Dombroski, about how to create or encourage a culture of learning in your organization. And what does mindfulness in the workplace look like? I think you'll really enjoy this episode focused on organizational culture. I'm interrupting this program to ask for your help. I'm working on my PhD for my instructional design program. And I'm looking for volunteers to be interviewed about their instructional design roles. If you have three years of experience in instructional design, have instructional designer Learning Experience Designer or similar title. And your main responsibility is to design and develop learning experiences, at least three design projects per year than I'm looking to talk to you. If this doesn't apply to you, please feel free to share it with a friend and reach out to me over LinkedIn through the end of 2021 to help me out with my dissertation. Thanks so much in advance. Hey, Roberta, how are you? Hey, I'm doing well. How are you? Good, good. So let's jump right in. Why don't you introduce yourself? And just tell me a little bit about your career journey and kind of how you ended up where you are today?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, my name is Roberta. I'm currently working as the VP of user research at a company called user interviews. We are essentially a recruitment panel. So companies can use us to connect with potential customers, existing customers get feedback on designs that they're doing, actually just joined the team a few months ago. But prior to this, I've been in the field of l&d for like 10 years, started my career as an instructional designer. So I did learning experience design. I'm kind of an odd bird and industry to be honest, where I've always done learning that was sold as a product or service. I've actually never worked on like an HR team before. So I've been really fortunate in that, and over the years, just pivoted into, like product management, user experience, design and research. So it's been a winding path over the years for sure.

Heidi Kirby:

Wow, that's awesome, though. That's great. And yeah, you know, that's funny, because I've encountered this conversation a couple of times now. And I've only worked under HR in one of my roles. And I've had like, four different instructional design roles. And yeah, it's, you know, you, that's where you typically think of l&d being housed. So when you meet people like you, it's like, oh, that doesn't have to be the way or that doesn't have to be a thing, you know. And yeah,

Roberta Dombrowski:

I've seen a lot of more of like, customer education roles over the past years, which has been really cool. So like, on customer success, support and stuff like that, which I love, because there's so much you can learn in a role where you're exposed to like other functions, too. So

Heidi Kirby:

yeah, absolutely. And it's nice that like, you know, I just heard somebody talk about this the other day that like, you know, I knew, as an instructional designer, I could find a job in any industry, because like, the industry itself doesn't matter. It matters, you know, how we apply what we know, to that industry. But the amount of random things that you learn through your different projects and things like that. It's just, I know more about Medicare that I should ever need to know as a person in my mid 30s.

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, it's it's funny, because I talk about like a lot about problem solving, like, instructional designers are problem solvers. And usually, the type of problems that we're solving are like performance problems for our organization helping people learn more. But that exposes us to the wide range of the Medicare, it could be customer at home, it could be something else. So yeah, I try to be broad with the problems I solve.

Heidi Kirby:

I love it. So you like to talk about kind of how to create a culture of learning within organizations, and you're also a mindfulness teacher. So I want to touch on those two topics today for sure to kind of talk more about the organizational culture side of things. So So let's say that, you know, we're talking maybe a startup who hasn't built out an l&d function yet, or somebody who has one that they don't really feel is kind of working or is valued. What would be kind of like your your top tips to get kind of like or encourage a culture of learning at an organization?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, for sure. It's kind of interesting, because in my role, I do a lot of research. And over the years, like I worked at edX as the head of research. So with that role, I had a really interesting vantage point where I saw into enterprise companies and also smaller SMBs, who were trying to create a culture of learning, right? Yeah, the biggest barriers, honestly, that I see. No matter what organization you're in, no matter whether it's like a cultural learning or what you're trying to create, you have to create trust between employees first, otherwise, like every single initiative that you create, just won't happen. There has to be trust between employees management. And then from that foundation, you can build everything else that you want to help like the team with and empower the team. One of the biggest barriers that I've seen for just workplace learning is really time honestly, it's time for the employees, it's time for the managers. Even if it's I do research and talk to customers. Now it's like, always, something's going on. And so it's hard to carve out time for your professional development and for your employees development. So one thing that I've actually seen is companies that encourage their employees to block off time on their calendars. So like, Tuesday afternoons, you have three hours, that's your l&d time, you can use it in any way you want to, which is really cool. Another thing is that I've seen it's like tips is really like arming managers with coaching skills. Like how can they pose reflective questions, so their employees, so that they're not always answering, like coaching is about not always answering questions for the employees, but asking them questions. So they can self reflect and figure out what's important for them, what are they looking to learn. And then once the manager does that, they can then like, support their employee, whatever they want to learn, creating that culture for themselves. And then also just thinking about, like, different methods of learning, I think in the class, like, especially before COVID, we a lot of people thought about learning, like other people in the workplace would think about in person training. And there's a lot of things that COVID accelerated, that I feel really grateful for. And one is just like exposing other methods and channels for learning. So like, Slack is one thing, like you can be learning from your coworkers on Slack. And just thinking about all the different methods and channels that you have in an organization. So, yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

completely. I think that as far as like the, how learning occurs, I think you're right, I think people have this very traditional mindset of like, you know, like, almost like a lecture based, right? Like, how did I learn when I was in K through 13? Right? And, oh, well, you know, I have to sit down in front of the teacher and listen to something and it, it can be something as simple as, you know, think about LinkedIn, and how people use LinkedIn, and they share an article, or they share a thought, or they share a quote, and that that's learning, right like that. You're learning from that story, or that quote, or that article that has statistics in it. And, you know, even that very casual method of like having, like you said, a Slack or somewhere where people can just share information that they find is is really critical.

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, I often talk to teams that I work with about, like rigor of research or rigor of learning. And learning is really anytime you don't know something, the act of going out and acquiring more knowledge or information. And so it could be like, you're just doing Google search for like, what to make for dinner, and you come up with recipes. Or it could be as rigorous as like somebody who's doing their PhD dissertation and doing like really controlled studies. And that is really different structure and mode of learning. But there's everything in between all of that. And there's so many different ways and like things in your toolkit as you're considering building out your culture at your company.

Heidi Kirby:

Absolutely. And I think a lot of times, there are these Reddit really critical, crucial pieces that we in l&d See as truly valuable, especially in like a remote work environment. And like, you know, this idea of employee engagement, and that, to make that possible, you have to let your employees kind of socialize and not socialized just about work, right? Yeah. You know, a lot of times those conversations tend towards like, Okay, well let them socialize. But like, let's throw in some questions about like, stuff related to work. And it's like, well, no, no, like, that's, the whole point is for people to get to know each other. And like you said, build that community of trust and be able to, you know, if I don't know, you, I don't trust you. Right, like, just get to the absolute fundamentals of like, what a trustworthy relationship is, if I don't know anything about you, I can't trust you. So you know, a lot of employees treat the like, you know, the virtual social hours or whatever. They're the, you know, typically, it's like the HR team, or if you have an employee engagement person, that they're trying to promote these things. And, you know, a lot of times companies see those as a waste of time, or they see those workplace learning efforts as a waste of time, because it's not, you know, you know, productive hours on the floor, if you will. And so how can you kind of how do you start to change leadership's mindset about those, and prove how those things are valuable rather than a waste of time?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, it's interesting, I've been really fortunate, especially in my new role to my leader has, like he gave me the time. Within my first few weeks, I was like, you know, I need to just take the first month and just observe what's the state of the organization before I dive in. And that allowed me to build trust with the team. I did everything from like observations, one on one interviews, yeah. And then after that time, started to put together my strategy. And it's, I was, I was fortunate in that I didn't need to convince him for that time. And we're already like, um, two months in, and I'm already seeing the rewards of that, because I'm having employees come up to me, if they have a question. And it flows into that work. I think like, if you do after prove it, I mean, it's really as simple as giving examples a lot of the time, because I'm doing research, I'll give examples, I'll give quotes, I'll give observations of what I'm seeing, like, here's the current state of what I'm seeing in the organization. Here's some recommendations. And like, where I think ROI could be improved, or where I think things could be improved. So it might be looking at, like current engagement surveys and being like, we're seeing low engagement, studies have shown, like these types of things can help, let's run an experiment and see if it improves it. And that way, it's kind of like you're taking the risk off of this big larger effort that the company might see. But framing it in like, just, here's my hypothesis, here's the experiment that we're going to do. And it's more approachable.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, totally. So I find a lot of times that every organization is like, yeah, we have a great learning culture here. And we really value learning, you know, interview with different organizations, or you ever talk to people from different organizations. But I've had it happen before where the more questions you ask, the more you're like, what are you really, though? So what are How could you tell what is the best way to kind of tell? Maybe in an interview stage, but also like, as you're trying to work and lead within an organization, whether they actually value learning and learning culture? Or if they're just kind of like paying lip service to that?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, it's an interesting question, because it gets into perception of like how people think that they're acting versus actual behaviors, which is what I dig into a lot of that when I talk to our own customers, and I actually had a personal experience where in a previous organization, I joined the team I signed on, they said, they valued learning. And then they told me that I couldn't do outside like thought leadership. And I'm like, there's a conflict going on where we're saying one thing, and then our behaviors are saying something else. Even when I'm in like interview processes with people, I'll ask them more behavior based questions. So I'll say things like, Tell me about a time when an employee has like worked on their own learning, or how do you currently encourage your employees like to continue their professional development? What rituals behaviors do you have inside of your organization? because that gets more into, like the habits and behaviors that's going on, rather than just the talk, because a lot of companies these days will say like, we have a company value of ongoing learning. And it's like, what does that actually mean? So like probing poking down, like a little bit more. You Yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

yeah, sometimes they mean, like, sometimes they mean, like ongoing learning as in, you're gonna do like five people's jobs in the time that you're here. And you're gonna have to learn all those different jobs. You know, it's not necessarily like a benefit to you professionally, when you're learning those things. But I think you raise a really interesting point that I'm always telling people that I talked to who are in like, the job interview process, and that's this very much like an interview being a two way street. Like you mentioned, asking a behavioral based question, as the candidate in an interview, which I don't think many people probably think to do, or think of, because they think that like, oh, no, I'm supposed to be the one to answer. And the questions that I asked should be like, very shallow, right. But that's not really the case. Like, you really need to dig in and get a good knowledge of the organization or of the culture in order to find out and one of the things that I often ask, in kind of like the initial screening interview, where you're really not going to get too far down into the weeds, right, you're not going to get into those level of questions. Something that I always ask is, you know, how has the company helped you develop professionally as a recruiter, you know, within the last year or so? And if the answer is like, Oh, I'm, well, I'm, you know, I know that sometimes there's like hemming and hawing, that happens, and you're like, oh, so they're not developing you? Or, you know, other things like, Oh, I was allowed to go and, you know, join Sherm or, you know, whatever, like, join an organization and take classes go to these webinars, they paid for me to go to this conference. And, you know, that's how you can kind of tell just even on that very, like, brief, short phone screen interview, get a good idea, just from the very beginning of like, is this a place that really actually values learning?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, and it's so important to like, there's so many dynamics, obviously, with interviewing, like, especially with the pandemic, some people were out of work, and they were just looking for things. And there might be a feeling of like, How can I ask these questions, I'm in this position where I need this role. But at the end of the day, you're evaluating the employer just as much as they're in value, evaluating you. And something that's been really nice now is that it's turning turning into an employee's job market. And there's so many opportunities, we get to choose what, what fits for us, what's what are we looking for? And so I encourage everyone to take the time to do that. I have, probably because I'm a researcher in my full time role. Yeah, I had like, rubric really, that I used to look when I'm evaluating and questions that align with. It ended up benefiting me really well, where I found this amazing role. And I'm very happy. So yeah, yeah.

Heidi Kirby:

Because I think sometimes you get into like the, you know, candidates, and I've talked to a lot of people who are kind of in this boat, they get into, like the point of desperation, where they're like, I am so desperate to get out of my current job, that I just want something. But they're just trading like a bad situation for another bad situation, because they just take the first thing that comes along, instead of being a little bit more intentional and having like, you know, like you set a rubric. Like, that's great. That's because so many recruiters and so many hiring managers are using a rubric to evaluate you, oh, why not do the same thing, right?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, for sure. I had some students I teach. I'm an adjunct at Boise State. And I had a student actually, who was a K through 12. educator, and with COVID. She just wanted to move into workplace learning now. And so I did a lot of coaching on, take the time figure out you can have like an intermediate job for the time being, but really take the time to figure out whether the organization meets your needs or not. So yeah, definitely kind of understand.

Heidi Kirby:

Okay, so I want to switch gears and talk about mindfulness now, because mindfulness is something that I think has gotten number one great exposure since COVID. Right? I think it's been really great and I've been talking to a ton of different people in my life about Mindfulness and specifically about meditation and you know, just just different ways that we can incorporate mindfulness. But my first question is what does mindfulness look like in the workplace?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, I think. So I'm going to take a step back first and say mindfulness in general. So my definition of mindfulness is just being aware. And noticing. So being present, noticing, and you can't do that 24% Like 24/7. Can't do it. Yeah, all the time. But just feeling whether it's like being present in your body sensations, thoughts, and just noticing that judging trying to change anything. And so what that means in the workplace is the same thing. It's just noticing being present. Whether it is I'm in a meeting, and my schedule has been really packed. And so first minute of a meeting, oh, I notice like, my shoulders are clenched, my chest might be tight, because I'm stressed out, noticing that, feeling that feeling, not trying to suppress it. But just being there and letting it hang and like, kind of getting curious. You're like, Huh, that's interesting. I feel a little stressed out right now. Yeah. Why might that be kind of having a conversation with yourself? As you move throughout the day? So yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

I like it. Yeah. Because, you know, I think of you mentioned meetings, you know, you often find yourself, especially if you're not actively involved in a conversation during a meeting, right? You find yourself like, looking out the window or checking your phone or whatever. And like, you know, it's it's very interesting, because I've caught myself a few times where I'm like, Okay, now I need to treat meetings and conversations in work. Like I treat much like, you know, this podcast recording, I'm not going to be checking my phone while I'm talking to you for my podcast, right? I like fully focused, fully locked in, anything else could be going on in the world right now. But I don't care because I'm recording this podcast and something I'm passionate about, right. And, you know, I am trying to bring that same level of like focus and not being distracted to like work meetings

Roberta Dombrowski:

as well. It's interesting, because a lot of the time, when people think of mindfulness in the workplace, the way that it's positioned a lot is around focus and productivity. And I try not to lead with that when I do like mindfulness sessions. It is definitely that's an outcome that you can get to but that's not what I try to lead with or like a focus if it comes, it comes. Yes, but But it is the remaining present, and noticing, like, even as we're talking right now, what is Heidi's tone? Like? What's her presence? If I'm in a coaching session to with people, the way I bring in mindfulness is just how is this person like? What's their their energy? Like? Are they in a state to have this conversation or receive feedback as we're talking? Present? I think about like cognitive load of people that I'm speaking with, and if that's one way that I incorporate, like the mindfulness into the workplace, too. I do I do another way, personally, that I do incorporate is like noticing what time of day is best for me? What time of day, and I'm most energized. And advantage of that, like, I know, mornings are best for me, I block out my time. And that came as a result of the noticing. Yeah, which has been helpful. Yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

totally. No, I was I was actually just talking with one of my team members about this yesterday about how, you know, a lot of companies during and post COVID are kind of going to this like, really, truly flexible workplace model. And it's kind of happened on accident, right? Because you've had this like whole idea of remote work that's come about, and with the remote work has come Okay, well, now, I don't just have to hire the best, you know, software developers and Silicon Valley. Now I can hire this 20 year old guy that's living on his parents farm in Boise, Idaho, who has all these skills and talents, but like he's not in this geographic location. But oh, here's the problem is that we don't work at the same hours. We're not in the same time zone. And so when you have a more global based organization, and you're working with people from other countries, now you don't have that like locked in eight to five so you can really You. And a lot of companies are embracing this, like, work when you're energized. And I think that's a super important message. And I think that that's going to be so critical for organizations with keeping up with productivity, especially as people are just going through like this unprecedented, like mental and emotional toll, right is well then let people work when they're when they're energized. Because that is, you know, just noticing, you know, what I just said about, I love my podcast, I love recording it. That's why it's so easy for me to be locked in and focused on it, right. So if I pick a time of day, where I, you know, enjoy working and feel good about it feel energized, then, you know, I'm setting myself up for success

Roberta Dombrowski:

here. And I feel really fortunate, the company I work at is fully remote, it's always been fully remote, pre COVID. And I learned over the years, like my grad program was fully remote to very like asynchronous, and I love working that way. And there's habits that I learned in that program that I can now incorporate to the workplace. And there is a level of the self awareness and the mindfulness that people have had to learn over the past year with COVID, of adapting from that synchronous in person work environment to now being fully remote. And I think people are still figuring it out to have, do I do I want to continue this? Do I want to switch to hybrid? What's the time for me? And I think it's important for leaders and organizations to be flexible. And I'm glad we're seeing the benefits of it currently. And there's no openness to it. So

Heidi Kirby:

yeah, and I think, yeah, I think that kind of this more people centered approach is only going to prove to be super beneficial, kind of like how the l&d field has, over time started focusing more and more on the learner, and how much that's been beneficial and helped, you know, lnd functions to our, I would argue that it's, that's what is making them so relevant in the workplace nowadays, you know, is that that focus on the learner instead of on the, the end product or the outcome, right. And so, but one thing about mindfulness, and this specifically applies to me in terms of like meditation is, you know, I have been working in for like, the last year with a nutritional coach. I've been trying to avoid the pitfalls of COVID and being stuck in my house. And like, you know, eating all the junk food and watching TV. So I've been working with this really great nutritional coach. And, you know, she challenged me to meditate. And I, you know, have been a self proclaimed terrible at meditation person. And I've had to be corrected by like a few people who are like, no, no one's terrible at meditation, you're just approaching it wrong. Like, you're just you have this idea in your head, that meditation is going into a room and having perfect silence and sitting there and closing your eyes and having a perfect, you know, environment to do this. And and that's not really what it's all about, like, it can happen anywhere, just like mindfulness. So what would you say are kind of some of the common misconceptions about mindfulness that might make people think like, this doesn't belong in the workplace?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, I think definitely one misconception is, I'm terrible at mindfulness, what you just said, there is no mindfulness is again, being that present awareness noticing there is no one way or right way. It's just being, there's nothing to change. And so there's no one right way to do it. So that's one of the first misconceptions that there's a right and wrong way. I think with that, there's many ways to do it in the workplace. There's things like incorporating a mindful minute at the beginning of a meeting or mindful 30 seconds, where you just sit and you take in the presence of being with your team. It changes the whole energy of the meeting, it changes just arriving. It's giving your space to arrive. It could look like meditating, could be walking, it could be I go outside, sometimes in the garden and just like feel my feet in the grass and just walk and I'm being present. That's a form of meditation. It could be like, stretches in between getting up from my desk and stretching and just being present with my body. That's usually not what people's mental model or just like what pops into mind when they think about meditation or mindfulness, but those are all forms of it that I think isn't necessarily thought about, especially in the workplace, like, it could be blocking off your calendar for a certain period of time, and you're just noticing, or time in the day, if that's what's most productive for you. So, yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

yeah, absolutely. That's great. I think another misconception is that it has to be like that you have to be like a spiritual person to be able to do it. And you know, you that's, that's not a requirement at all right? Like, you can be like, the most, you know, scientific, theoretical, you know, analytical mind and still be able to appreciate, on a physiological level, what it does for the brain, right?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I've seen people from all walks of life, do mindfulness practices, you don't have to be a certain age, you don't have to be I know, like with yoga, too. People say I can't do stretches like I have back pain. I have that pain, like I have chronic illness, people can do it, no matter what your background is. And I think another misconception too, is around performance. Like when people talk about workplace mindfulness, a lot of the times it's based off of performance. There are like a lot of data and scientific evidence that backs it up. But I try to, again, not lead with that. Yeah, when I'm speaking with people, so yeah, I always say it's worth trying as an experiment. So absolutely,

Heidi Kirby:

yeah. Because that's how I, I kind of started dabbling in it, and then thought I was terrible at it, and then had to reframe my perception. And I feel like I'm now I'm now getting better. I know that that's not really the thing, you know, there is no getting better. But I feel like I'm able to better, you know, channel my energy and able to better, you know, take those moments to kind of shut my mind off and only observe what's in front of me, right.

Roberta Dombrowski:

And I think, especially as we're working remotely to, it could be like, one of the mindfulness exercises that I do every single day, and I'm horrible at it. And I say this is brushing my teeth. Because I've always had this habit growing up where I brush my teeth, and I try to do other things. I like walk into the puddle. Yeah. And I'm like moving things around. So one thing I do is just try to be present fully present while I'm doing that, or like, even when I'm cooking, like dinner, just being fully present, like, Okay, I'm stirring the pot right now. I, what is my mind thinking of when I'm doing this? Or even answering emails at work is like, it's so easy to like, open slack, open your email be jumping between things, like, Okay, I'm gonna focus on this right now for two minutes. Give it my attention, and then move to something else.

Heidi Kirby:

Right? Like, how many times working from home do you like absolutely absent mindedly walk to your fridge or like walk to go get something to eat? And you're still thinking about what you've just walked away from at your computer? Instead of like, and then before you know it, you're like, Wait, I don't want to eat this or put this on, you know, why am I putting this cereal into, you know, on a plate, like, you know, you just you realize that like, oh my gosh, I'm totally disconnected from what it is. I'm trying to do right now. And so I think finding those little moments, and finding those places is a really good start.

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah. And being kind with yourself to call and experience. It's all learning. So.

Heidi Kirby:

Absolutely, absolutely. So my last question for you is, what is one book, video article course, movie, whatever piece of media that you would suggest to somebody who wants to make a bigger impact on the learning culture at their organization?

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah, one thing that I've been working with our product and UX teams at user interviews on is there is a products coach called Teresa Torres. And she has this book called continuous discovery habits. And it's really focus in the core audience is really like product managers, but I actually think it applies outside and it's how do you get into the habit of like continuous learning? And she talks about habits you can take in your organization, how do you share what you're learning insights, how do you base experiences based on outcomes rather than just like process? We have to do this because we're in this process. And I think I really recommend it to learn during learning practitioners as well, because I've grown a lot by learning from other functions like product and user experience, it's made me a better learning practitioner. Yeah, so I definitely recommend that.

Heidi Kirby:

Awesome. Well, we'll share the link to that and the links to get connected with you in the show notes. But thank you so much for joining me.

Roberta Dombrowski:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Heidi Kirby:

Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.