52: What Facilitation Can Teach Leaders with Bhakti Karkare

In this episode, I chat with Bhakti Karkare, founder of Third Loop Learning about what facilitation can teach leaders. We talk about how leadership has changed since the pandemic and Bhakti gives tips on how to be an inclusive leader.

Bhakti Karkare is the founder of Third Loop Learning. She is a Facilitation Evangelist, who takes simple, easy to use facilitation skills and shows you how to use them to become the leader you know you can be - one that inspires loyalty, creativity, and dedicated work. She has helped hundreds of leaders and managers become facilitators, and really, they discover their own authentic style of leadership that makes all the difference for their teams, and their career. 

Bhakti's suggestion for growing your leadership skills:

• Timothy R. Clark's The 4 Stages of Psychological Safety

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

To learn more and get more great resources: 

• Connect with me on LinkedIn 
• Join our global Useful L&D Community
• Work with me or see what I'm working on with Useful Stuff

Transcript

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Bhakti Karkare: 0:00

What if leaders could learn the science and art of facilitation not just to be able to conduct better meetings or conduct workshops, but to do better work as people, managers?

Heidi Kirby: 0:15

Hello, friends, and welcome to the block the building learning an organizational culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, I chat with my friend Bhakti Karkare, a founder of third loop learning about leadership development, and advice and tips for leaders. So whether you're a new leader, a seasoned leader, or an aspiring leader, this one has something for you. Hey, Bhakti, how are you? Hi, Heidi. I'm

Bhakti Karkare: 0:46

good. How you doing today?

Heidi Kirby: 0:48

Good. I'm good. Thanks for joining me. So we'll jump right in, why don't you just tell me a little bit about your career path, where you started and how you ended up founding third loop learning? Yeah,

Bhakti Karkare: 1:02

um, I started my career right after my MBA in human resources. I worked in corporate HR OD and learning and development roles for more than a decade in India. And then I moved to the US in 2019, right at the beginning of the pandemic. And so obviously, my job search, when I got here did not go very well or as planned. And while I was waiting to find the right opportunity, the right job, I started finding right to work. So I couldn't find the right job. But work started coming my way the kind of workshops, I would like to facilitate the kind of consulting I was, you know, looking to do. And as, as more and more work started coming, it, it seemed like an indication to just start a company. And that's how I became an accidental entrepreneur. I started my company third loop learning, because my clients asked me to do so. And that's how tight loop learning was born. Yeah.

Heidi Kirby: 1:59

That's awesome. So what is behind the name third loop learning? Oh, there

Bhakti Karkare: 2:04

were four, it's so difficult to decide what do you not want to name your company, it's, it is so overwhelming. But I was always fascinated by the learning theory, which talks about three loops of learning. And I was always fascinated by the idea of the third loop of learning. So in case you don't remember, the first single loop learning is, you know, showing how to follow rules. double loop learning is about changing or modifying the rules and being able to reflect on the rules. And the third loop is like the most evolved form of learning where you learn how to learn. And as a facilitator, I've always been very, very attached to the idea of reflection and learning going together. And I try to create that level of learning in the groups that I'm working with. So that that was always the idea. And three also is my lucky number. It's my birthday. So I decided, oh, this makes sense. So let's call the company third loop learning.

Heidi Kirby: 3:04

Yeah, sometimes it just fits. And it just makes sense when you're like, Okay, that's it, like when you see it, you know, right.

Bhakti Karkare: 3:12

Absolutely. That's how it was.

Heidi Kirby: 3:15

Nice. So on LinkedIn, you describe yourself as an inclusive leadership expert, and that you help leaders and managers become better facilitators. I'd love for you to tell me a little bit about your philosophy behind this. How do you create inclusive leaders from successful facilitators?

Bhakti Karkare: 3:37

So I started my career very early on in facilitation, and pretty soon I started developing facilitation skills and others. And as I started doing that work coaching others to be facilitators, a lot of them started reporting that, you know, learning facilitation skills has changed the way they influence and the change that we weigh the lead teams, or the way they interact with their team members, and how they can create cohesion and teams and more and more leaders who were who I was coaching to be facilitators started talking about their transformational experience after undergoing facilitation training. And that was kind of a lightbulb moment for me. You know, I always used to question why do we think facilitation is always connected to conducting workshops and discussions? And that got me start, you know, started to think, what if leaders could learn the signs and out of facilitation, not just to be able to conduct better meetings or conduct workshops, but to do better work as people managers and what if they could understand group dynamics, build psychological safety, understand the power of intentional listening, art of reframing, overcoming resistance, all the things that leaders facilitators learn on their journey to become facilitators and I believe that is the foundation of inclusive leadership. In today's world, I think a leader is expected to be able to hold critical dialogue to coaching conversations, build genuine relationships, listen to employees, and that is what is essentially the job description of a facilitator. That's what facilitators do in a workshop environment, right. So if this the science can be taken from just facilitating workshops into leadership, I think there is a, there is a huge connection between inclusive leadership and the and the way you can do inclusively leadership, the acquiring of facilitation capabilities can help move the needle on dei work. And it can help a leader become a better ally, and a more inclusive, individual and illegal.

Heidi Kirby: 5:39

Yeah, absolutely. I'm just thinking back to like my higher education, college teaching experience, and how I always said, when I when I moved through my career, I started in instructional design, I eventually was like, you know, I want to be an l&d Manager. And when people came to me, and they're like, Well, you don't have any actual, like, leadership experience, I would think back to the classroom, right, because I'm like, classroom management, is heavy leadership experience. And I can say that now, having been both a manager and a college professor, that it it draws from the same skill set, it really does, because I would walk into a classroom of non traditional students, many of whom were much older than me, and to establish that rapport with them, and to, you know, get inspire them and motivate them and get them to do the work, you know, as a young, early 20s. Person. Yeah. That takes skills, you know,

Bhakti Karkare: 6:49

yes. And, and if you do that, you will learn so much than any leadership workshop, any any course can offer you doing that can make you a leader in a day. I mean, I've seen people just going to the theory of facilitation skills, and then actually going to facilitate a workshop. And they come out with transformational insights of how to manage groups, and how to pay individual attention, but pay attention to the group and how to focus on content and the process that the group is going through. And I think that is essential leadership experience.

Heidi Kirby: 7:23

Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say is kind of the biggest area of opportunity you see for leaders? So what a lot of times in your experience, do you see as kind of their biggest weakness?

Bhakti Karkare: 7:38

Yeah, there's just so much to talk about there. But especially after pandemic, I think the pandemic completely changed the expectation, and employees have from the leaders. I mean, we no longer need our leaders to have all the answers and to be perfect. It is humanized leadership. And we want leaders to be genuine and kind and to first support us as humans. So I think it's it's time for leaders, you know, those leaders who have always felt that they don't fit the traditional, charismatic, larger than life, mold of leadership, it's time and it's an it's an opportunity for them to shine through. If you can genuinely build a table where everyone feels like they belong, and then they can speak up and contribute. You're a leader. You don't have to be extraordinary to be a leader. And so I just remembered, when you asked me this question, a few few months back, I think I wrote a post, which resonated resonated a lot with people. And it was something like what do you help others bring to the table. And it's, so it's no longer about what you bring and what what education you have, or how how amazingly influential you are, it's more leadership is more focused on others now, and the more you will shine, if you can build a level playing field for everyone, and when everyone can be a leader in your presence, and I think that's a shift. And that I think a lot of leaders do not recognize yet there's value in themselves shining themselves, then really creating the environment for helping others shine and come out stronger.

Heidi Kirby: 9:14

Right, and just in my experience, it makes so much sense that if your team is successful, you are successful, and it's just so funny to me that so many people don't realize that they don't quite get it. But I mean, really, the way I see leadership for me and how I build my team is how can I bring together the strongest people who are the best at what they do? That's different from what I do and different from what each one does and how can we all contribute our individual strengths to do something amazing and what what role I play in that like I just this is Pretty on the nose, but I just facilitate the conversation. Right?

Bhakti Karkare: 10:04

And that's where the connection for me is. I mean, and just, you know, you saying why, why is it that, you know, it's so obvious, just empower your team and you will be successful? And why is it not obvious to people or leaders is fascinating to me. And I think it comes from our own experience of how our leaders treated us or how we saw when we were growing up, what is the definition of leadership, and it didn't come through, but now is the time that that conversation is happening. And that kind of behavior, leadership behavior is accepted and promoted. And I think it's a great time to see that change and shift happening.

Heidi Kirby: 10:42

I love it. I love that idea that it's it's, you know, kind of that that excuse that people always have is, this is the way we've always done it. Right. And we see that so much in learning and development all throughout, right? Like, yeah, so many people still think of learning teaching, as like the teacher standing up at the podium talking to the class. Yeah, right. Yeah. And we've started to shift there to where we were, we've said, Oh, it can be so much more. Right. And it can be so, so much more interactive and so much more inclusive. Right? It's great that we're doing the same thing with leadership.

Bhakti Karkare: 11:23

Yeah, I'm really excited about this new change of people understanding that leadership and culture are so intertwined. And unless you change both together, things will not move it will you will just keep going round and round. Yeah.

Heidi Kirby: 11:39

Absolutely. Yeah. Because the big culture changes, they have to happen from both the bottom and then Yes, right. Like you have to have buy in at the lower levels of the organization from the people actually doing the work. But you also need leadership to model it. Right? Exactly.

Bhakti Karkare: 11:55

Yeah. Yeah. I saw a bull sighting, which said, culture is stopped talking about culture being leader driven. It is employee driven. And I do not completely agree with that. I would love to hear your thoughts. But I think some behavioral changes happen through modeling, unless someone in power influence changes and shifts gears, things don't move. And

Heidi Kirby: 12:21

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, so I did, I did a podcast episode on psychological safety. And part of the reason I did that episode was because someone had reached out to me and told me about a situation where they were experiencing at work that they felt was just like a toxic work environment, and they didn't know what to do to change the culture. But they very specifically said that it were, it was the leaders who were creating the toxic workplace and that nice, my response was, listen, if it's the leadership, there's not much movement, or much traction that you can get. Yeah. Because at the very least, you need their support. But even better, would be their modeling, right?

Bhakti Karkare: 13:08

Yes. Yes. And that's, that's so important. And that's what is the responsibility that comes with leadership, if you can't take the responsibility to be able to be that change agent, and be self aware to make that change for yourself as well. It is not leadership in my eyes.

Heidi Kirby: 13:27

Yeah, no, I like that. I think that's really good. So if we're considering kind of like this, I, I guess it's new leadership, right, if we, if we want to call it that, because I think has really shifted, in big part because of the pandemic. But what would be like the top three characteristics of great leaders in this new kind of world of leadership?

Bhakti Karkare: 13:54

Yeah, because I'm coming from the world of inclusive leadership and leaders who want to create the right environments and spaces for others to thrive. For me, the first quality is curiosity to understand others, just genuinely curious about what's going on in every nook and corner. And what's this person feeling? And what's this person? How is this process affecting other processes and the environment and people in my team? So curiosity is definitely first on my list. Second, is helping others reflect and this comes from the Learning and Development angle that I have. But I think leaders who can help others reflect on their experiences are doing a great deal of service to l&d. It's, I mean, we talk about courses and we talk about elearning and this learning and that learning, but if people don't have the time, and the space to be able to reflect on their own day to day experiences, they're really not capitalizing on. All that is available in the organization and workflow to learn so leaders who can provide that reflection or nudge that reflection are amazing at creating learning cultures in their teams. And the third is accepting that you're not supposed to be the smartest person. This is again, coming from that humble leadership and facilitation facilitative leadership that once you know that you're not first you're not supposed to be smartest, and you're not. And just you are here to create a collective voice and collective opinion and shared understanding. Those are the smart, smartest leaders. And those, in my opinion, are the leaders who create high performing loyal teams.

Heidi Kirby: 15:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I was just having a conversation earlier today I was recording a podcast with some of my friends on my dissertation research. And we were talking about how we were talking about how leadership is kind of this amorphous blob in the l&d world, right. And like, so many l&d leaders are from beginnings that aren't lnd Yeah. Right. Like they're from other areas of business. And, or they were just, you know, you know, they came to it from some other department, and I've met so many different l&d leaders who are like that, but my thing is like, hey, look, we have these facilitators. We have these instructional designers, we have these people who are leading people in in workshops and meetings and projects, and they're leading projects, and they're leading programs, and they're writing their own curriculum, and they are, they are prime candidates for l&d leadership, and why are we not developing them more and using them? You are

Bhakti Karkare: 16:49

touching a very difficult note that yes, I have seen that so much. You know, and it was so fancy at some points specifically, in my career that, you know, bringing technology folks to lead, HR and learning roles. It was a fancy thing and everyone. Yeah, that brings in a business perspective to l&d. It's amazing. It's good to have that perspective. But I think the expertise we've developed by doing what we do over and over again, and and the kind of consultative approach that we develop is is also very, very critical to success in what we do, and understanding our audiences and outcomes.

Heidi Kirby: 17:30

Absolutely, yeah, I mean, because we are so often in l&d considered a cost center. Yeah. Right. And we are constantly having to prove our worth, and we have no choice, but to be aligned with the business goals and outcomes, or else, you know, they get rid of entire l&d departments if they don't, yeah.

Bhakti Karkare: 17:53

I mean, that's a constant battle or kind of conflict culture. I have that discussion a lot with a lot of people. I agree that we need outside perspective. But internally, the expertise that we develop is also extremely critical to success of l&d.

Heidi Kirby: 18:13

Yeah, absolutely. So what advice would you give to other people who are kind of in your shoes who are getting into talent or leadership development? Or who are thinking of starting their own own, you know, consulting business and helping others?

Bhakti Karkare: 18:32

Well, yeah. I think one of my biggest lessons from my career was developing this mindset of curiosity, and, and really getting into a space where I'm very confident to ask questions, I think questions have been my most meaningful, most powerful tools in my consulting and facilitation and coaching. So really, the one skill that I feel has helped me immensely in my, in my work is the art of questioning and asking the right questions. And that includes, it starts with developing the right mindset that I'm here to ask questions and not know all the answers. And that's the facilitators mindset again, and secondly, includes the confidence to ask questions. And sometimes it is very daunting to ask questions of certain people who are in authority or who are going to give your business and you don't want to, you know, ask them questions that might make them uncomfortable, but really crossing that line. And going beyond that fear to ask why why is it that you want that and why do you think this is this workshop is going to solve your problem can really bring you closer to bringing value to to whoever is asking you have that solution? And and the third is to really not stopping unless you find the answers that you're looking for and still being run. be asking more questions. I think that is one skill that has really helped me. And I thought a lot about this question. And I think if this is the one skill that you need to develop, and if you do it, it can help you create better relationships, better understanding, shared understanding with people you're working with, and can give you immense confidence to walk into any room and say, Okay, I don't know everything. And I'm just going to ask question, and that creates a persona that is very consultative, that is very facilitator, and it can really help build long lasting relationships.

Heidi Kirby: 20:33

Yeah, that's a really great point, because in my, in my dissertation research, I know I keep coming back to it. But it's like my, I just talked about it earlier today, it's fresh in my mind, but I interviewed 25 different instructional designers about about their processes. And of the 25 people that I talked to, to shared almost the exact same situation where they had been given a group of subject matter experts. And when they met with the subject matter experts, they started asking all those questions. And then the subject matter experts started getting really defensive, right. And they started, you know, thinking that their expertise was being brought into question. And in both of those cases, the project was was reassigned at their request, because they were so highly offended. How can you What's something that maybe could set a better tone, or could set kind of the context of like, Hey, I'm going to ask a ton of questions. Yeah, it's nothing personal. It's just, you know, how do you how do you kind of find that persona?

Bhakti Karkare: 21:43

Yeah, I think, I think it is a lot of to and fro, but what you said is right, really setting that context as to why you are going into a questioning mode. upfront that, you know, this is my style of working. And the the idea of asking question is to create better shared understanding so that we don't do things that don't matter. That really helps. And second, I think, like you said, the tone and the kinds of questions you ask, and this comes with practice that you you're asking question in a certain manner, it's not getting you answers, change the way you're coming at it. And you know, for example, you're asking someone, like, I do a lot of leadership interviews for my work, and, or if I'm doing a learning project, and I'm asking them, what are the critical skills to survive or thrive in your team? Some leaders get very, very uncomfortable with that question. And it's in your interest to kind of ask this question from a different angle saying, hey, if if, if someone is watching your team from outside, what would they see successful players doing? What behaviors would shine? If your team is a movie? What things would make it successful? Or hit movie? So you know, you have to be a little creative? To give people that space to imagine to be able to answer your question, sometimes they don't have all the answers. And the nd. The reason your question is not just to get what they know, but to also what even they don't know, to really shine light on their blind spots that even you are not aware. So just coming at things from different angles and looking at how can I ask questions differently and creatively, can really, like I said, create more understanding for everyone. And you may get information that you did not go in expecting, you might just try, yeah, insights that are really amazing. And that's, that's what that is the power of questioning. And you know, it just shines light for everyone.

Heidi Kirby: 23:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the biggest kind of like, mind blown experiences I've had in my life have come from such simple questions, right? Yeah. I remember back earlier in my career, I was working in a position and and I was talking to someone, and I said, you know, I'm just really stressed out, I'm just really anxious all the time. And they're like, Well, is it work? And I'm like, no, because, you know, work is really boring. And I'm not really doing much. And you know, there's not anything going on. And this person said to me, all they said was, is that a problem for you? And my brain exploded, I was like, Oh my gosh, it is I want to be busy. I want to be productive. I wouldn't be doing things like that's why I'm so anxious and feel so restless. It's because I'm not accomplishing anything. So I love that. Yeah.

Bhakti Karkare: 24:37

And you know, sometimes the best mentors or coaches, they'll just pick up a word that you use, and they'll say, What do you mean by that? Tell me more about it drops you into this very different space where you can reflect again, what I said, you know, good leaders help you reflect and they are incredibly self aware. And that's what they push people to do. become self aware. Think about. Why are you thinking this in this manner?

Heidi Kirby: 25:02

So? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it takes time to write like, Good leaders have to allow time for their team members to get to know each other to be able to have that reflection. And that requires just having time to talk about nothing yet seemingly right. Even though we know it's not nothing, right. We know that it's building relationships. And it's, but to like the business's bottom line, yeah, sometimes they see that as unproductive. Exactly right.

Bhakti Karkare: 25:35

We have all seen people saying, oh, what does l&d do they just organize these fun workshops? Team building, right off sites are considered fun, right? But there's just so much value in why we do that, and, and the impact of it in the long run. Yeah, we need to be able to articulate it better. But yeah, that's the value of these conversations. And that's why again, go back and leaders should be able to facilitate those conversations and learning facilitation can help provide that kind of framework of how to do it. And what is your role as a facilitator or as a leader in those conversations? Where do you listen? Where do you guide the crew? Where do you, you know, chime in, or ask a question that light on something that's not being spoken?

Heidi Kirby: 26:26

Yeah, absolutely. Love it. All right. So my last question is the same one that I asked all my guests with a little bit of variance. So if you could recommend one resource of any kind for people to grow their leadership skills, what would it be and why?

Bhakti Karkare: 26:44

Yeah, we speak about psychological safety so much. And I think about inclusive leadership. And I think Timothy Clark's four stages of psychological safety, that's a book, I'd recommend anyone, whether they are at advanced stages of leadership, or they're starting their journey, it's such a good framework, to understand how to actually built psychological safety, not just from a philosophy perspective, and behavioral perspective, but really assessing where, where your team is right now, really, what that there are ways and types of psychological safety. And the book really provides a framework to define those types. And see, where are you lacking as a team as an individual, and what you can, as a leader do to change whatever shape or form psychological safety exists in your, I think it's a great resource. Very, very easy read. And very, very practical. So that's my recommend.

Heidi Kirby: 27:40

Nice. I actually just borrowed that ebook from my local library and just started reading it. Yeah, I'm not very far yet. But I just started, so love

Bhakti Karkare: 27:49

it. Awesome. Yeah.

Heidi Kirby: 27:51

Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I have loved our conversation. This is right up my alley. I'm so appreciative.

Bhakti Karkare: 27:59

Thank you so much for inviting me. I was. I was so happy to hear from you. That you want me to be here. This is a great podcast, I listened to every episode. Thank you so much that you're doing for the community.

Heidi Kirby: 28:11

Thank you. Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.