30: L&D Leadership with Sarah Cannistra

In this episode, I talked to Sarah Cannistra about L&D Leadership.

Sarah Cannistra is an L&D career coach and modern learning leader and consultant. Through her company, The Overnight Trainer, Sarah helps people looking to transition into an L&D career, as well as L&D leaders looking to grow their strategic learning mindset. She draws on over 10+ years experience in corporate L&D to provide both group and 1:1 coaching from an L&D executive vantage point.

Website: www.theovernighttrainer.com
Sign Up for Next Cohort of Group Coaching: https://theovernighttrainer.thinkific.com/courses/the-overnight-trainer-8-week-coaching-program-august-2021
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scannistra/

Sarah's suggestion for L&D leaders:

• Designing for Modern Learning: Beyond ADDIE and SAM

Here is the link to Sarah's AWESOME podcast: https://theovernighttrainer.podbean.com/

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

Thanks for listening to the BLOC!

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/

Or check out what I'm working on over at https://www.getusefulstuff.com/

Transcript

Sarah Cannistra: 0:00

More and more organizations are realizing that that's a key part of developing the organization as a whole is developing leaders.

Heidi Kirby: 0:15

friends, and welcome to the block the building learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, I talked to the lovely Sarah Cannistra about l&d leadership. I'm interrupting this program to ask for your help. I'm working on my PhD for my instructional design program. And I'm looking for volunteers to be interviewed about their instructional design roles. If you have three years of experience in instructional design, have instructional designer Learning Experience Designer or similar title. And your main responsibility is to design and develop learning experiences, at least three design projects per year than I'm looking to talk to you. If this doesn't apply to you, please feel free to share it with a friend and reach out to me over LinkedIn through the end of 2021 to help me out with my dissertation. Thanks so much in advance. Hey, Sarah, how are you?

Sarah Cannistra: 1:17

I'm good. Heidi, how are you?

Heidi Kirby: 1:19

I'm doing well. So let's dive right in. And why don't you tell me how you ended up in the lnd world? Oh,

Sarah Cannistra: 1:28

okay. So it's quite the story. So I never ever knew this was a career to go into, as I think most people, and I was in college I went to I went a lot different colleges. But that's a story for another day. And I never really knew what I wanted to be like I always, I mean, I did growing up. When I was in third grade, I wanted to be a meteorologist. You know that I wanted to be a therapist or all these all these different. I also want to be president of United States at one place. Yeah. So like it I never quite had I never grew up really having a vision of what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I went to college, and I started at Florida State. I ended up at University of Central Florida. And I was studying psychology at the time, and I liked it, but I just didn't really love it. And I was working three jobs. So I was working at the university calling alumni and asking for money. So sorry.

Heidi Kirby: 2:26

Oh my gosh, that's too crazy. It's like the worst job ever. Right?

Sarah Cannistra: 2:30

Yes. And I think it made me like when I ended up getting into sales. I think having that background was so important because I never, I was never afraid of the phone, like so many people in sales on the phone. And I was like, Oh, I've been on the phone since I was 18 years old

Heidi Kirby: 2:45

trying to sell something for absolutely nothing. Oh, yeah. And even before that, when I

Sarah Cannistra: 2:49

was in high school, I actually collected credit card debt. So like she Yeah. So I've done a lot of a lot of phone experience, which oh my god a dirty but no, it's all

Heidi Kirby: 3:00

I just had to that's not a common job. I feel like what else you did it. There we go.

Sarah Cannistra: 3:07

So I was working. I was doing that I was working at a dog boutique selling like luxury dog toys and collars and food. And I was also working for a nonprofit called like collecting money. So a lot of a lot of my life has been around collecting money. And I was working three jobs putting myself through school. And I actually, I think I might have told the story on my podcast. But if not, then your listeners will be the first one to hear this. But I was working to put myself through school and pay for my apartment. And I ended up bouncing a rent check. And my mom was my cosigner. I swear this actually this leads to my my career, but my mom was a cosigner on my lease. And they immediately called her. And so she called me and you know, she bailed me out. Like she always does the things I always did. Thanks, mom. And then after that every single month, she would call the front office to make sure that like my rent was paid which from that point forward, it always was. And she became really close with the office there because she kept calling every single month. So they knew all about her. And my mom was in property management. So my mom worked in the apartment world, her whole life. And so one day she called me and she said, Sarah, they're they're hiring, you'd be really great for working in property management. I was like, Absolutely not like I don't want to do what you do, mom, you know, apps like completely repulsed from the idea. And she said, Well, you got a 20% Rent discount. I was like, Oh, well, in that case. I know. Yep. So I applied. I started working in property management, and I fell in love with it from day one. I just absolutely loved helping people. Well, helping people that helping people find their homes. And I had an incredible onboarding experience which really solidified my love not only for the career but for the company as well. and stayed in touch with people who were onboarding me. It was just such a wonderful experience. And so I grew in that career. And I ended up becoming an assistant manager and then a property manager. So essentially leading the sales function. And I always, the one thing I always loved the most about that role was developing my team. And so I would create what I know now or like job aids, and I would create, like weekly meeting templates. And I people would come to my property to learn from me and I would go to other places, and always making booklets and to do guides and PowerPoints and all these things that again, I didn't really know as a career. And so I was working for this one company called the Zito, they're based out of Maryland, and I went to a leadership training, we had a brand new training team. And I went to a leadership training and I remember sitting in this classroom, and I was like, oh, oh, this is someone's job, like someone's job is to stand up here and, like, facilitate this. And I was just so captivated. And I learned so much, I went back and I applied so much, it made me a better leader. And it was a two day, like a two day session, and which now seems just like unfathomable to go in person and sit somewhere for two days. But this was like, This was probably a least 1112 years ago now. And so afterwards, after day two, I went up to the head of learning and the trainer at that time, and I said how do I? I didn't How do I do this? Like I didn't even know this was a career to be had. And they said, Do you know this particular system called you already? And I said, Yeah, I use it every day. It's a great we need to you already trainer? Can you start like tomorrow. And so I was still doing my full time job but now became like this, this essentially a systems trainer for the company. And so every couple weeks, I would go and this is like old school, right? Like I feel so I feel so old talking about this, but like, I would sit in and I don't look that old but like I would sit in the back of the classroom on the master computer that was projecting, you know, to the front of the room. Oh, yeah, like legit projector, nothing electronic here. And everyone had their like big giant, heavy laptops. And I would walk people through step by step we would spend the whole entire day together, you know, on this system, little you know, little that I actually know about training them. But I fell in love with it the light bulb moments the the helping people with with their careers, it was just so captivating. And then I have corporate trainer position came available at my company, I actually didn't apply to it. Because at that time I had actually I left college early to go work full time. So I didn't have a college degree. And they ended up going to the interview process and hiring someone else who backed out. And they came to me they're like, Hey, we didn't approach you before, but like, why didn't you apply? And I was like, Oh, I don't have my college degree. And they said, Well, that doesn't matter. You You've already you've already done this drill, you're doing this job for us. So I applied I went through the whole like the interview process. I got the job as a corporate trainer. And that's how I got into l&d in the first place. And then during that time, I learned so much from my direct supervisor who used to be the head of l&d at Marriott. So it's a lot of experience to learn from there, went back to school got my degree in organizational leadership and learning. Within two years, two and a half years, became the Director of Training for the organization. And since then, I've been director at four or four organizations total. So it's been a wild ride that I never expected, but the most wonderful ride.

Heidi Kirby: 8:46

That's awesome. That's really exciting. Yeah, and I wanted to bring you on here specifically today to talk about l&d leadership. Right. And so, you know, getting your start the way you did and kind of being as familiar as you are with leadership, I'm sure that you probably understand that, like, leadership development is its own separate animal. A lot of people don't realize that especially, you know, coming from the education world, but like, there are skill gaps that I think a lot of people need to kind of fill if they ever want to become a leader in l&d a quality leader at least right?

Sarah Cannistra: 9:26

Oh, totally. I mean, it's, you're so right. I mean, I have coaching clients now whose their specific niche is just leadership development. Like that is all they want to do for organizations is focus on leadership development. And I think it's a more and more organizations are realizing that that's a key part of developing the organization as a whole is developing leaders. Because you don't just wake up one day and become a good leader. Like it just doesn't happen that way. You have to you have to work at it. So yeah, I think it's such an important part of Elon D is having that that person or that team or whoever that's actually responsible for leadership development within the organization?

Heidi Kirby: 10:07

Yeah, for sure. What would you say are some of the most important skills for you personally as an l&d leader,

Sarah Cannistra: 10:16

that so funny, I was just thinking about doing a post about this. So you're you're you actually read in my mind. First and foremost for an l&d leader, I would say is consulting. And I think it's a skill that so many people don't have or don't utilize, especially in the l&d world. So if you want to be an effective l&d leader, you have to learn to be a consultant to the organization and start to, and there's so many ways you can build upon those skills. But the first part is to actually see yourself as a consultant. And not just as an order taker, or someone who is just just focusing on the l&d pieces that are given to you, it's actually being able to solve problems through learning. And also knowing when that learning is not a solution. And that's what a good consultant does is actually consult on solutions, whether they're learning related or not. And so I think consulting is is number one, if I had to kind of go down a list, I would say, being able to develop your own team, and having your own leadership development is incredibly important, because I say this a lot to a lot of people. And I said it in my show, too. But I used to have a boss that would say learning and development were the cobblers kids with no shoes. And you know, we're constantly working on developing eat, the organizations that we work for, but very rarely do we actually put that focus back on ourselves for sure. And so I think to be a really good l&d leader, you have to work at those leadership development skills, you have to work at what it looks like to actually develop a team. So I think that I think having outlets along the same lines of consulting, but having strategy skills, so being able to actually be strategic and have strategic thinking, thinking beyond just a one and done solution, thinking beyond just a linear solution, and kind of undoing all the traditional l&d old traditional thoughts that we think learning is right, and not equating All, all, learning with training, that learning actually happens in and outside of a classroom or an elearning. So I would say those are pretty pretty up there. And I think what learning those skills early on really helped me grow really fast to become an l&d leader and then continue to grow from there.

Heidi Kirby: 12:49

Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I think the consulting is really I always call it the pizza maker instead of the order taker. I love it. I'm, I've always been like, I'm not here to just make the pizza if you needed someone to make the pizza, like call somebody who just has the basic skill set, like I'm not, I'm not going to school to get my PhD to make pizza, you know. And so, I think that's super important. And just, you know, like you said, there's there's dynamics at play. So I just got my first job as a hiring manager in January. So regulations only had direct reports for like six months now. And like, one of the biggest things for me is that the amount of just day to day business acumen that you have to know that you're like, wait, I'm in l&d, why do I need to know budgets? And why do I need to know finances and just things that you never thought that would be part of that that are part of that. But then the other thing is like really championing your team and your people, I think that's really kind of underestimated when you don't, as an individual contributor, see that you're being championed for? Right?

Sarah Cannistra: 14:07

I think that's your 100% Correct. And one of the best leaders that I ever had as same as Steven Fretwell, he used to always say my job is to block and tackle it. I am here to block and tackle and I love that and I've always taken that and utilize that in my teams. I'm here to protect my team. Like my team is also not order takers. But if they are taking an order it's going to be from it's going to be from Yeah, for lack of better like terms, but like, right, it's going to be because it's the right decision for our department to make. And so I think along with that comes if you are going to step up to the plate and be an allen d leader, you have to have and develop a voice. And even if you don't have a seat at the table, you need to pull up a chair because otherwise you're going to get run over you You're going to be making pizzas, your team's name making pizzas. And you're all going to lose the love for the job, because what's going to happen is you're making all these pizzas and nobody's eating them. Because, you know, it's not the right solution. You know, they weren't dogs, not pizza. And so, you know, I think it's l&d Leadership isn't for everyone. And it's important to note, like you part a huge part of that, what you're realizing now and what you've experienced is that you, you have now a team to protect. And if they don't have a voice, you need to be their voice to make sure that the work that they're doing is actually going to be meaningful, because I think l&d is one of the few jobs where if you don't see the fruits of your labor, it can become really depressing. And if you become really redundant, and you're just feeling like you're in this hamster wheel, but the second you do you see the fruits of your labor and people progressing and performance improving, and people feeling more engaged in their in their roles, everything's worth it. That's why we wake up in the morning. And so it's remembering that they wake up in the morning to do to do a role and to make a difference. And it's your responsibilities as an l&d leader, to do the best that you can because not always 100% possible people are listening. Yeah, must be nice. No, no, trust me, there's a million things that I created that I'm like, this is a complete waste of my life and energy. And I will never get this time back. But there is also a lot of stuff that I will I've died on a hill for or that I've won the battle on, because I've pushed back hard enough and haven't been afraid to do that. So I think it requires a certain level of gumption, a certain level of bravery, to be able to stand up to leaders and say, trainings, not the solution. Here's what some possible solutions could be. But it's not training, and my team's not going to be doing this.

Heidi Kirby: 16:55

Yeah, for sure. And I think that reputation building is also like another huge skill, because unfortunately, a lot of l&d teams are seen as a cost item. Right? You know, they are, they're costing the company money. They're in, like the extra line, you know, in the annual budget. And it always feels like an uphill battle for lnd teams to kind of prove their worth. And so at least, you know, not, not actually not in my management experience, I actually have a great team, a great organization that like really believes very strongly in training, It's oddly refreshing. But I've seen it just so many times where it's like, okay, if we're going to get rid of people, or we're not going to replace people when they leave the company, where do we start? And it always seems to be training. And, you know, it's really hard to see the fruits of your labor and be excited about things when that reputation isn't there. And I think a lot of the times, it's up to the manager, the leader to really start making those connections. Oh, for

Sarah Cannistra: 18:05

sure. I mean, I've worked in organizations where l&d has been the king of the castle or queen of the castle, whichever, you know, whichever royalty, you want to go with your app. But and has been revered by the company. And the first place people go in, there's problems and listen to the leader. I also do with the leader like Steven who I talked about was such a a trusted leader in the organization, because he was a great learning consultant. He knew, you know, and he also knew too, and I think it's an important kind of going back to that, that leadership, what it takes is, he also was versed in what solutions outside of training there could be. And so like He not only if he might say, okay, my team's not going to work on this, but this might be a great initiative for marketing to craft, whatever it may be on it, right. So I've worked organizations like that, where and that was where I forgot my taste of training. So you can imagine going to other places, I was like training is the, the lay of the land, you know, like, How dare it not be. And I, you know, got some rude awakenings at some other places. But to your point it comes down to I think it comes down to two things, and you mentioned them already. One is, is the organization do they have a learning culture? And I, to all my coaching clients, anyone who's listening, I always say like, if you want to be an l&d and be successful, you have to go to a company that has a strong learning culture, or is desperately trying to build one, right? Like there. There are companies that maybe haven't had it, but they recognize it's a need, and they're going to put all the resources towards it. But they either need to have it or desperately want to have it and want you to be a piece of creating that. Because if not, and you don't have that organizational and cultural support for learning. You're gonna hate your job. You just hate it. And I've experienced that where learning has been poopoo But on that learning is not seen as anything that's important that learning is just for compliance at learning is when you're in trouble. And it's been a terrible experience as an l&d professional, seeing how the organization treats learning. And with that, also, I think comes from the leadership side of it, right? That company didn't have a strong lnd leader who was willing to stand up who was willing to block and tackle who was willing to do their own self development. And so I think it's, you know, it's such a huge, it's a to two prong process of the organization has to want it. And the leader has to be willing to take that on and to create a great reputation for the team as a team that is able to solve problems add value, because then you become invaluable. Like at my first company, that department grew. And I started, we were four people. When I left, six years later, we were 22 people. Wow. And the organization only had to 2500 people. I'm not talking like 100,000 person organization, like it was a relatively medium size, private company that had a wide array of of l&d professionals working there. So versus another company I worked for was had more money was bigger, and you had a really, really, really small dispersed team that didn't have as much skill set. So it's, it's really interesting to see how culture weighs, weighs heavily on that.

Heidi Kirby: 21:31

Yeah, for sure. So just because people totally love this kind of thing. Do you have a story about an example of a bad leader? And it doesn't even have to be from your l&d career. It doesn't have to be from you. It can be like, quote, unquote, a friend. But give me just give me a good story for just like the fun. I watch a dating show on Netflix crowd right.

Sarah Cannistra: 21:58

Yeah. Am I allowed to say a bad word? Yeah. Okay. So I, this is pre lnd days. Well, I've had some, you know, interesting, l&d leaders, but this is pre l&d days, I once had a boss who would start every single team meeting. So every Wednesday we had a team meeting, and he would start every single team meeting with Well, shit rolls downhill and you're at the bottom. Let's get started.

Heidi Kirby: 22:26

Oh, my gosh.

Sarah Cannistra: 22:29

Every team meeting and you know what's so interesting is that that leader had also promised me a promotion. And it's my first company I corporate company I've ever worked for a guy that might in my sales days, and had I'd worked my ass off had promised me a promotion, everyone was already congratulating me about it. I went to I was living in DC at the time, I went to Orlando to help my sister move into college, I came back and he's like, Hey, so sorry, actually gave the rule to my friend. So that kind of gives you again, another indication. I was so upset. And I remember I worked that day, everyone else works nine to six and I work 10 to seven and six. One everyone laughed, and I applied for the company that I ended up leaving to go to on my work computer. I was like, Alright, cool. That's how we're gonna play this. And so I applied and then I worked for I got a job at Vizio. That's how I ended up in my in my learning career. So if that never happened to me, I don't know where I would go see perspective. So having that leader, and that him being like that and treating me that way is what led me to say I know I can be treated better somewhere else. Sure. And in fact, it gave me a career that I could never have imagined.

Heidi Kirby: 23:48

That's a great fairy tale ending that story. It's perfect. It's just like a dating show on Netflix.

Sarah Cannistra: 23:57

Happily Ever After drama,

Heidi Kirby: 23:59

the happy ending,

Sarah Cannistra: 24:01

nothing ever happened again. I love it perfect ever since.

Heidi Kirby: 24:08

That's awesome. So you coach l&d leaders, in addition to being an l&d leader, what would you say is like the number one area where l&d leaders right the struggle bus?

Sarah Cannistra: 24:24

It's I think people have been talking about it a lot. And I think you've been talking about it recently too. But impostor syndrome, I think people I coach people who are looking to get into l&d I coach l&d leaders and I see the same thing about No, not feeling like I have enough experience. And, you know, my, I always talk to my business coach, she always gives me a great analogy about you know, you could go to someone who's been cutting hair for 25 years and you could get the worst haircut in the world. Or you can go to somebody who's been cutting hair for two years and get the best haircut in the world, right like some people just have skill sets. And so the people who I work with have these incredible skill sets and these incredible strengths, but still sometimes forget that what they've done, whether it's in l&d or not in l&d how much they can bring that experience into the decision making. So I think that that's a huge area. People just not feeling that they have the right to have a voice and a seat at the table. So I spend a lot of time coaching, especially my l&d executive clients. And high level l&d, l&d like managers on getting that seat at the table. And with that, it's kind of like the way that we beat imposter syndrome. It's like, once you got that, so you're like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I got this seat now. But it takes a while to get there. So I think that's a huge, huge area of opportunity. And the biggest challenge I see is people standing in their own way. That's why I love being a coach. Because I know people, the people, especially the ones I work with, already, I see it immediately. Sure. I always tell them, you know, borrow the confidence I have in you until you have it in yourself. And it takes some time to do that. So I would say just people not feeling that they have the right to assert themselves in getting that seat at the table is the biggest, biggest challenge for people.

Heidi Kirby: 26:22

Okay. Very cool. Well, I just have one last question for you. Yeah. And it's the same one, I asked all my guests and that is if you could pick one, book, movie, video, Ted Talk course, ebook, whatever piece of media that you would encourage all lnd leaders to consume? What would it be and why? Okay, so

Sarah Cannistra: 26:48

I talk about this all the time, all day, every day. So anyone who's ever listened to me speak anywhere knows what's gonna come out of my mouth. But it's designing for modern learning, beyond Addie, and Sam by Crystal Kadakia and Lisa M. D. Owens, and I will disclaim it with the fact that I also consult there. But before I consulted there, I found the book randomly on Amazon, someone had posted about it, I ordered it. And I mean, this is a little over a year ago. So at this point, I've been in l&d for eight, nine years. And it turned my world upside down in the sense that it finally simplified all the thoughts I've ever had about being an l&d leader, having a seat at the table designing learning for people when, where and how they need and want it in five steps. And so like it, it changed that for it. And that time, I was working full time as another company. And it just changed the way that I approached learning that I was able to further my seat at the table. So it really covers essentially teaches you how to be a consultant in a way to to the organization. So it covers so many so many facets. So I think anyone or anyone who's in l&d period should read it, but especially if you're an l&d leader, because I think it gives you a shortcut to getting that seat at the table to being able to work with stakeholders and company leaders to understand what are the pain points in the organization. And it encourages you to think outside of what we deem as training and learning. And that's what's been so beneficial for me is it's helped me peel back the onion and kind of redo the wiring in my brain that says, like, oh, this could be an in person class, or this could be a web or this could be an elearning that I now look at learning as, oh, that could be a poster, like in a break room. I mean, not that office right now. But it could be a Slack channel, it could be like all of these things. It just it helped me see that we are learning 24/7 And we even the modern kind of ways that we do learning, like e learning or putting things through an Alex P. It's not as modern as we think it is. And so it just it, it helps me become a really clear, l&d leader and be very clear on how I can help the organization while also helping the learner so I cannot recommend it more than I when I read the book. I stopped them literally to the point where Lisa, who's the co author reached out to Krystal and was like, Did you plant her? Like do we know her? And I was like, No, we don't know her. finally reached out to me and she was just like, I see you posting about our book a lot. Like can we chat about like, oh my god is she gonna tell me to stop talking? But then we ended up talking I you know, went to their workshop and then in February of this year, I started a consulting for them and it's, you know, it's it's changed the way that I even do my coaching but I create my own courses. It's It's a fancy has to read. So it also, of course, everyone take the course. It means please do I've helped facilitate it. So you get to spend some time with me do

Heidi Kirby: 30:08

great. So we'll share the link to that. But we'll also share the link to your podcast, which is also awesome. And you should go listen to that next in our show notes. But thank you so much for joining me, Sarah. It was great having you.

Sarah Cannistra: 30:22

Yeah, this was fantastic. I don't get to talk about l&d leadership that much. I usually talk about more on the career side of things for people getting into l&d. So this has been awesome for me to get to stretch that muscle a little bit.

Heidi Kirby: 30:35

Great. Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.